The Truth of the Uruk-hai

[Galin]

Legate of Amon Lanc wrote: '... However, what you say is just one moment where the Orcs are mentioned; another is at Helm's Deep, and don't forget Treebeard's words - that's what I consider quite important.

Treebeard being a character in the tale indeed wonders here -- he questions what is going on but he doesn't know what Saruman has really done. He has guessed right in that Saruman has bred Orcs and Men, though the result need not be the Uruk-hai however.

We know that Saruman had 'many' Uruks in his service: 'Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great Uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected.' Appendix A

... The Uruks are mentioned as large here. However, I am pretty sure that "large" means just "big in comparison to the small mountain maggots who are all over the place". And the "huge orc-chieftain" is probably the biggest among them all, however, he is described as which means that even though he is huge, he is almost man-high. Note this, please, it will be useful later.

Right, almost man-high, arguably big for an Orc. That's my point though, the Isengarders are not necessarily that unusual in size to Aragorn. They are greater than the Northerners just as some Uruks of Mordor could be (in general). We don't get much in the way of detail in Moria, but the Uruks there are large, and the chieftain is 'huge' (for an Orc). It is the half-orcs that are said to be 'man-high' in any case.

Interestingly, "swart" is one of the words used especially for Uruk-hai of Saruman. In connection with them, the words "large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords" are used several times; probably to emphasise the fact that these were them who killed Boromir (as Uglúk also says, "we killed the great warrior"), but also it somewhat looks like specific sign. The speciality of Uruk-hai of Isengard is that they are "slant-eyed" - that's how you should recognise an Orc, or even a Man from Isengard: that there is something about his eyes.

JRRT describes Orcs in general (in a letter) with slant-eyes: '...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes;...' JRRT Letters

In Flotsam and Jetsam, Merry says: (snip of quote). This concerns these "squint-eyed fellows" we all know. Note please, that these are not Orcs. Merry says that there were Orcs, wolf-riders, and then Men; which he divides into these cathegories.

These are described as 'half-orcs' however, Aragorn replies to Merry:

'Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.

'I thought of him too,' said Aragorn. 'We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep.' Flotsam And Jetsam

And at Helm's Deep, Gamling says: 'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,' said Gamling.' Indeed Saruman has bred 'half-orcs', also called Men-orcs or Orc-men in my opinion (noting that these terms are half one thing, half the other. And translate 'goblin' if desired, in either term).

'... and in his lust for mastery commited this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.' JRRT, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

However it's also clear that Treebeard spoke about Uglúk and his Uruk-hai when he spoke about crossbreeding Orcs and Men.

I disagree it is clear however. Some (or many) may think so, but Treebeard has no way of knowing what Saruman has done, and what he is wondering about can easily be 'half-orcs' instead of Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk'. Or if he saw any of the Uruk-hai, he would not know why they did not seem to mind the Sun.

This implies what I said before, that the Uruk-hai of Saruman were still somewhat different, more Man-like than the Uruks of Sauron. The other thing is also that you never see these "goblin-faces" in Sauron's armies. Apart from Easterlings, Southrons and Variags of Khand there are no large groups of Men in his service; in Mordor there are just normal Orcs (i.e. Snaga and Uruks).

Yes Sauron doesn't seem to have had half-orcs at this time

Note Merry's statement that the Southerner at Bree was 'not so obviously orc-like as most of these were'. Generally speaking two 'kinds' of half-orcs could indeed be expected when breeding Orcs and Men, and the more orc-like result would not be as well suited to spying as the less orc-like result, though indeed there may have been some grey area here.

Tolkien uses two terms when he speaks of the result of Saruman's breeding program (though not Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk' in any case)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

Treebeard being a character in the tale indeed wonders here -- he questions what is going on but he doesn't know what Saruman has really done. He has guessed right in that Saruman has bred Orcs and Men, though the result need not be the Uruk-hai however.

and

Originally Posted by Galin

I disagree it is clear however. Some (or many) may think so, but Treebeard has no way of knowing what Saruman has done, and what he is wondering about can easily be 'half-orcs' instead of Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk'. Or if he saw any of the Uruk-hai, he would not know why they did not seem to mind the Sun.

Treebeard had personal experience with seeing Orcs of Isengard coming into the forest and cutting, burning, we all know the stuff, burarum. And because of what he says, as I quoted earlier: "...[Saruman] has been doing something to [the Orcs]; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men..."; it's clear that Treebeard must have seen at least some of the Uruk-hai. And if he did, then this implies that nothing like that has ever existed before in Middle-Earth, not even in Mordor, so these Uruk-hai are Saruman's speciality. The only thing you could argue about is whether the "Orcs" that Treebeard saw were not the "goblin-faces", but I'd presume that for someone like Treebeard with his long lists and ages of knowledge, he'd speak more clearly of "wicked Men" and not "man-like Orcs", had he seen these "goblin-faces". Therefore I think what he was referring to were the Uruk-hai like Uglúk was.

[Galin]

You are free to hold that interpretation of course (and I'll bet you're not alone), but what Treebeard might see and what he knows are yet two different things.

'Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.' JRRT, Letters

Now that doesn't mean I toss aside everything Treebeard says. Indeed not! But the quote you are raising has the character himself essentially admitting that he does not know what Saruman has done. Saruman has been doing something, but what? 'I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?'

Good questions, but questions nonetheless. Have 'half-orcs' been seen? If so the beings under question are maybe something like what Merry describes: 'horrible: man-high but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed' -- indeed the half-orcs as Aragorn calls them.

And if it was the Uruk-hai that were noted, again, how would Treebeard know (not that he would claim to know), why it was they didn't seem to mind the Sun? Big Orcs who don't appear to mind the Sun or man-high Orc-faced beings doing damage to the forest could easily be 'all the same' to an Ent... close enough in any case, with respect to Entish concerns, though it probably would make one wonder what Saruman has done.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

You are free to hold that interpretation of course

Well, I'm not here to hold an interpretation, I am here to learn something or to try to help uncover something. Exploring possibilities, exposing flaws in theories and trying to come to a conclusion is what I want to do

Originally Posted by Galin

And if it was the Uruk-hai that were noted, again, how would Treebeard know (not that he would claim to know), why it was they didn't seem to mind the Sun? Big Orcs who don't appear to mind the Sun or man-high Orc-faced beings doing damage to the forest could easily be 'all the same' to an Ent... close enough in any case, with respect to Entish concerns, though it probably would make one wonder what Saruman has done.

I am not exactly sure if I understand the first sentence. If I understood it correctly, you (maybe just rhetorically) ask how would Treebeard know the reason why the Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) do not fear the light. But he says it. If we presume it was the Uruk-hai whom Treebeard saw, he saw them roaming the forest at day, which of course seemed strange to him. But as he says, "these Isengarders are more like wicked Men". This means that he had to notice something "mannish" on them. And that's what I said I thought about the Uruk-hai of Saruman: that they, in contrary to the Uruks of Mordor, had something "mannish" in them, even though they were Orcs. And if Treebeard judged them like that, it surely was not just because of the gear they carried.

The ultimate question, however, leads again to what exactly he saw. But the point is, that all these goblin-faced Men made the impression that they are Men. Even Merry, though he said they were unbelievably Orcish, classified them as Men. To make the judgement he did, Treebeard must have thought to himself: "Ha, here are some Orcs!" and only on the second sight "But hey, there is something strange on them, which is not quite Orcish."

However logical and I must say interesting your theory is, this thing makes me doubt it. It would be much more interesting to let us have Uruks of Mordor and Uruks of Isengard the same, but also the "we are something special" lines the Uruk-hai make all the time make it sound like they are indeed something different, something "more" than even the Mordor Uruks.

[Galin]

Legate of Amon Lanc wrote: ... If I understood it correctly, you (maybe just rhetorically) ask how would Treebeard know the reason why the Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) do not fear the light. But he says it. If we presume it was the Uruk-hai whom Treebeard saw, he saw them roaming the forest at day, which of course seemed strange to him. But as he says, "these Isengarders are more like wicked Men". This means that he had to notice something "mannish" on them.

Not necessarily something beyond 'sun tolerance' though. In other words, even if the Uruk-hai are the beings in question, they are like Men in that they do not mind the Sun, yes, but why don't they mind it, specifically? Treebeard doesn't know, he doesn't have certain knowledge. Are they ruined Men? half-breeds? some other reason maybe? some 'spell' perhaps? would even a half-breed automatically not mind the Sun? He doesn't ask all these questions, but he is questioning.

Treebeard's reason to suspect something about the Isengarders appears to concern the Sun, which, as far as he knows, is unusual for Orcs. Call it interpretation A.

If I understand your post correctly (and maybe I don't), you seem to be suggesting something like: Treebeard says they are more like wicked men because there is something 'mannish' about them and he saw them in the day and this also seemed strange to him (adding to his reasons to say they are like wicked men).

Maybe

The ultimate question, however, leads again to what exactly he saw. But the point is, that all these goblin-faced Men made the impression that they are Men. Even Merry, though he said they were unbelievably Orcish, classified them as Men. To make the judgement he did, Treebeard must have thought to himself: "Ha, here are some Orcs!" and only on the second sight "But hey, there is something strange on them, which is not quite Orcish."

Coupled with (from an earlier post, see above)...

'... but I'd presume that for someone like Treebeard with his long lists and ages of knowledge, he'd speak more clearly of "wicked Men" and not "man-like Orcs", had he seen these "goblin-faces".

In other words (if I read this right) you're suggesting that Treebeard can't have seen half-orcs because they give the general impression of Men and he would have spoken more clearly in your opinion. So you conclude he saw the Uruk-hai and etc.

Again maybe, but not clearly so in my opinion.

'if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little Orcs, and found out my mistake afterwards' Treebeard to the Hobbits

I rather think it quite likely that if Treebeard saw orkish beings, due to what he thinks about Orks and darkness he then wonders about 'ruined Men' or some result of interbreeding. Also I think one can press this point about classification too much. If indeed Treebeard saw beings who were (to use your words) 'unbelievably Orkish' we can't certainly know he wouldn't generally think them orkish enough to be termed 'Orcs' (when speaking to the Hobbits).

Treebeard's commentary here might suggest to some that the Uruk-hai are more than 'Orc-folk' with respect to blood, but as I say that is one interpretation, and but part of the evidence.

In any case The Ent might be surprised to know that the Uruk-hai (boast as they like) are not the only Orcs who can run 'well enough' under the Sun.

[littlemanpoet]

What about the chapters involving Merry and Pippin's captivity and travel across Rohan? In these Tolkien describes individual orcs and groups of orcs at length. I haven't had a chnace myself, but don't these passages reveal anything useful about the varieties of orcs?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A lot of talking at cross-purposes, due to confusion of terms, which are not synonymous, but which do overlap considerably.

1) Uruk, group-plural Uruk-hai (Sindarin Orchoth).* This term applies to all great soldier-Orcs, as opposed to lesser 'snagas.'** Uruk-hai does not denote, specifically, Saruman's hybrids, but does include a great number or even the majority of them (see 2a below); it applies with equal force to Grishnakh's group, Shagrat, Gorbag, and the Mordor-detachment in Moria. Their history goes back centuries before the War of the Ring.
It would be wholly typical of Orkish behavior if most groups considered themselves Uruk-hai, and all smaller Orcs as snagas or maggots- just as even bigger Orcs in turn classed them as apes or snagas or maggots.

2) Half-orcs, Orc-men, Man-orcs, crossbreeds, etc. These are the Orc-Man hybrids bred at Isengard at the end of the Third Age. There was (unsurprisingly) a great deal of genetic variation among this group: "producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

2a) Those in whom Orkish characteristics predominated appeared to be, and plainly considered themselves, Uruks, if of an especially powerful type ("We are the fighting Uruk-hai!");

2b) Those in whom the Mannish character was more pronounced ("Orc-faces") were useful to mingle with men, as the "squint-eyed Southerner" at Bree and at least some of Sharkey's Ruffians, and (I suspect) used to stir up the Dunlendings.


*Lit. "Orc-folk, the host of the Orcs," but (in BS and Orkish jargon, not Sind.) modified in practice (see note 2)

**Originally meant all Orcs, but in their own usage became restricted to the heavy soldiery.

[Galin]

I agree that Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk' does not denote 'hybrids' of course, and certainly Saruman's Uruk-hai are also Uruks (which is an anglicized plural)... but I do not think Uruks are necessarily hybrids however.

I find no certain evidence to date (many theories yes) that an Uruk is more (with respect to blood) than a 'great soldier orc', better trained and generally larger than other types.

The Uruk-hai are directly referred to as Orcs (or translation 'goblins'), but not directly (to my knowledge) referred to as 'half-orcs, man-orcs, orc-men' (though some think they are, by way of interpretation).

Incidentally, some argue that all Uruk-hai can be called Uruks but not all Uruks are properly called 'Uruk-hai'. Not that I necessarily agree with that, but the new information of 'Orc-folk' has not changed this argument it seems, as the claim is that Uruk-hai had (for whatever reason) properly become a 'tribal-name' of the Isengarders.