A 10th Nazgul?

This may sound very amusing, but what would happen if the Morgul Blade was used on, say, an Oliphaunt? Perhaps the outcome would be a creature which a Nazgul could command as a steed?

[Morwen]

If steeds for the Nine could be created this way, why steal horses from Rohan or create winged creatures for the Nine to ride?

[Hammerhand]

Is there not a difference between a Wraith and a Ring Wraith? The nine each had contact with one of the 9 mortal rings, and this was the route of their incarceration - it is completely different to the Morgul Blade's affliction. The nine hunt the one ring, what evidence is there to suggest a Wraith of different substance would do so also?

Personally, on reading the book, i thought that Frodo would have become a dithering "specter" like figure, serving the Nazgul, yet below them utterly. Legate mentioned this in his post and i am inclined to agree as it ties closely with my own interpretation.

To summarize: By my interpretation alone, it would appear to me that because of the nature of the original Ring Wraiths and how they came to be, it is impossible to replicate them unless in the same fashion. I believe a Wraith and Ring Wraith classification is necessary, being that they are very different in power and authority. I think that if say Frodo was to be stabbed with the Morgul Blade, he would have been inferior and not able to detect the ring, therefore being rendered quite useless to Sauron and the Nazgul - furthermore, i believe one such person would be nothing but a servant to the Ring Wraiths and the Good Lord Sauron.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by davem:

Would there have been a spare ring?

Actually, there might have been a few. The seven dwarf-rings were either destroyed or recovered by Sauron. We know he at least held Thrain's ring, which he captured in Dol Guldur in T.A. 2845. These rings were never specifically intended for the Dwarves, so they were probably not different in nature than the nine that ensnared the Nazgul. Certainly, these dwarf-rings were not sitting in a forgotten jewelry box in the attic of Barad-Dur. Sauron would certainly have tried to use them as he had used all the others, to ensnare powerful servants, slaves to his will. (In fact, this might explain the Mouth of Sauron, both his great age and the fact he has forgotten his own name. There's no way to prove it from what I know, however.)

But I digress from the topic of this thread. There seems to be a similar, though lesser, capacity to enslave mortals inherent in the Morgul-blade as is inherent in the Nazgul rings (or actually, became inherent when the One Ring was created. I'm sure Celebrimbor did not create the Rings with the intention of enslaving mortals.) Aside from their common inventor (Sauron) might there be any connection between them? What I mean is, the Nine enslave their bearers because they are slaves to the One. How does a Morgul-blade enslave? It's unlikely the blades were forged with the power of the One, since that was either in the Anduin, under the Misty Mountains with Gollum or in Bilbo's pocket (unless the blades date from the second age. Anyone know?) Could they have been forged with one of the Nine, or whatever are left of the Seven? or are they a seperate technology?

And what of the Barrow-wight? He is presumably the Ghost Prince of Cardolan, is he not? The enemy of the Witch King of Angmar in life. What made him a ghost, instead of passing beyond the circles of the world? Would an earlier Morgul-blade, if used, have the power to trap his spirit in his grave? Just how powerful could they be?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by radagastly

There seems to be a similar, though lesser, capacity to enslave mortals inherent in the Morgul-blade as is inherent in the Nazgul rings (or actually, became inherent when the One Ring was created. I'm sure Celebrimbor did not create the Rings with the intention of enslaving mortals.) Aside from their common inventor (Sauron) might there be any connection between them? What I mean is, the Nine enslave their bearers because they are slaves to the One. How does a Morgul-blade enslave? It's unlikely the blades were forged with the power of the One, since that was either in the Anduin, under the Misty Mountains with Gollum or in Bilbo's pocket (unless the blades date from the second age. Anyone know?) Could they have been forged with one of the Nine, or whatever are left of the Seven? or are they a seperate technology?

I'll start from the back. I believe the Morgul-blades are "modern", 3rd-age thing, because they are "Morgul-blades", which implies that they were made in Minas Morgul, that would be in the 3rd millenium of the Third Age. Only it could be that "Morgul" here is just the Elven word that means simply "sorcery" or "witchcraft", but personally I think not.
Anyway, to the main question. "How does a Morgul-blade enslave?" I believe the process is totally different from how the Rings enslave. The Morgul-blade, so to say, slowly kills you. The Ring just possesses you and fading is just a side effect, but the Morgul-blade chills you and makes you fade. The splinter traveled to Frodo's heart, if it pierced it (as it was the original intention, anyway), he'd be dead, technically, but the will of the Ringwraith (or Sauron) would possess his body (or "shadow", to be precise in terminology, since he'd enter the Wraith-world at that moment). There's something like a thin line between the seen and unseen and you pass it for example when you have the Ring on; and so Frodo would be trapped in this world forever as the Ringwraith are, seeing everything dim as they do, and his body would have just disappeared for the others (as if he were invisible). That's at least how I imagine it, I may be wrong. I imagine it the way that his brain "freezes" and his own personality is "doused" and the Ringwraith then could possess him. Technically, the result is the same as when he is possessed by the Ring, but the way is, I believe, somewhat different.

Originally Posted by radagastly

And what of the Barrow-wight? He is presumably the Ghost Prince of Cardolan, is he not? The enemy of the Witch King of Angmar in life. What made him a ghost, instead of passing beyond the circles of the world? Would an earlier Morgul-blade, if used, have the power to trap his spirit in his grave? Just how powerful could they be?

I believe this has nothing common with a proto-Morgul-blade, though I believe if something similar happened, the result would be a creature maybe weaker, maybe almost as strong (depending on how powerful it was in life) as a barrow-wight. However, as far as I know, the barrow-wights were NOT the spirits of Dúnedain! That's I believe very important thing many people are confused in: in Middle-Earth, the spirits of Men leave their bodies and go beyond the Circles of the World, unless something very strange happens. The only folks who were really "ghosts" were the Men of Dunharrow, and that was for their unfulfilled oath and the curse laid upon them by Isildur. But the Dúnedain were of good heart and there was no reason for their spirits to remain in the world (as far as I know there's nothing like the "vengeful ghosts" who remain on the earth because they were murdered and wait for "satisfaction" or whatever), unless the Witch-King trapped them with some necromancy; however even these things are not said in the canon and as far as I know, even in HoME there is just a speculation that Sauron might have trapped some Elves' spirits in Dol Guldur - but that speaks of Elves and not about Men; Men are quite a different sort and I'm not sure how much power Sauron would have over them after their death (just a side note, the Nazgul were not dead, but "faded to shadows"; had they died first, Sauron would probably have no power over them, they'd just leave the Circles of the World like everyone else). The Barrow-wights, to return to the original thought, were some "evil spirits" (who knows what; maybe some of these Necromancy-trapped spirits or the same sort of "spirits" that, as we read in the Silmarillion, were summoned to inhabit the bodies of Ents and Eagles).

Originally Posted by LotR Appendix A; The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain

It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.

So, technically: the Barrow Frodo was in belonged (probably) to the last prince of Cardolan, but what lived inside was not some corrupted ghost of the prince, but a creature possessing his tomb, his treasures and his bones.

[Lord Halsar]

I do agree that the barrow-wights were not the spirits of men(I believe that it mentions somewhere that they were indeed simply spirits of darkness, or things that the Witchking had conjured at Carn-Dum, either way they were not the spirits of men). But I do think that the Morgul-Blades would make one more powerful than most of you(if not all) are describing.
I always imagined that by 'lesser darkness', it meant like how there were Maiar that were weaker than others, like comparing Sauron to Gandalf. In this case, we compare the Nazgul to the wraiths of their creation(or not?). Who knows? We never actually saw any of these wraiths (at least to our knowledge), and Frodo didn't die (or become possessed, however you want to call it) by his most greivous of wounds. The fact of the matter is, we really don't know. To the most of my knowledge, little was really said about these 'lesser wraiths' than what is said in the FotR. I simply wish Tolkien had said more of the matter, the topic in itself fascinates me to a great extent.

[CSteefel]

I had this same question some time ago. As stated in the text, the 5 Nazgul withdrew after stabbing Frodo, thinking he would have soon succumbed to the wound. This suggests of course that they had some experience in the matter of turning their victims in to wraiths. This suggests in turn that there are more than one of these victims wandering around, although lacking one of the Nine Rings, there power would be very limited.

In fact, I was wondering whether this was not the fate of Earnur, who was lost in Minas Morgul...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Mansun

This may sound very amusing, but what would happen if the Morgul Blade was used on, say, an Oliphaunt? Perhaps the outcome would be a creature which a Nazgul could command as a steed?

A wraith olliphant hehe... If you want to get a visual of how it might look check this movie out. I caught a few minutes of it in a hotelroom during a recent holiday...

The Mammoth (2006)

http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0487037/

"We hunted it to extinction. Now it's hunting us."

[Nerwen]

What will they make a movie about next?