The Balrog vs The Witch King

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't see why breaking the gates with the ram implies that the WK couldn't do it by himself. He may very well be capable, but it may weaken him too much to be worth it, in such circumstances.

Maybe he could - & maybe he could have turned Frodo into a Wraith without the use of a Morgul Blade, & maybe you're correct that Rams & Blades are 'labour-saving devices', but all this is speculation. The fact is that the WK used Grond & spells to break the gates, & we don't know whether he could have broken them on his own. In itself the breaking of the Gates proves nothing about whether the WK had 'extra demonic force' - all it proves is that he's able, with a combination of spells & a battering ram, to do a bit of breaking & entering.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

In itself the breaking of the Gates proves nothing about whether the WK had 'extra demonic force'

True, not itself. But taking into consideration that the reader doesn't see the WK display such power, although he had far more reasons to do so previously, I believe the question of added force is a pertinent one. Capturing Gondor with a huge army presents a less pressing reason to use full power than capturing the one ring, especially if under dismaying threats and no restriction of secrecy.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

True, not itself. But taking into consideration that the reader doesn't see the WK display such power, although he had far more reasons to do so previously, I believe the question of added force is a pertinent one. Capturing Gondor with a huge army presents a less pressing reason to use full power than capturing the one ring, especially if under dismaying threats and no restriction of secrecy.

The 'gates' issue, to me, comes down to the simple question of whether Grond could have taken down the gates eventually, & I see no reason to believe it would not. The WK's contribution, as I read it, is to speed up the inevitable & add a bit of 'spectacle' (bit like Gandalf's addition of 'white horses' to the Bruinen flood). You'd have to be able to argue that the gates were so strong that Grond could never have brought them down on its own, & that the WK's own innate power could not achieve that even with the use of Grond before you could offer the destruction of the gates up as evidence of 'enhanced demonic force' in the sense of a power up from Sauron.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

The 'gates' issue, to me, comes down to the simple question of whether Grond could have taken down the gates eventually, & I see no reason to believe it would not. The WK's contribution, as I read it, is to speed up the inevitable & add a bit of 'spectacle'

I agree. By and large, I was trying to make the same point, that there was no extremely pressing need for the WK to use such magic power - unlike when trying to capture the ring, when that particular need was evidently present, but he didn't use such power. When comparing these two situations, the direct meaning of "added force" is the relevant one.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I agree. By and large, I was trying to make the same point, that there was no extremely pressing need for the WK to use such magic power - unlike when trying to capture the ring, when that particular need was evidently present, but he didn't use such power. When comparing these two situations, the direct meaning of "added force" is the relevant one.

I don't see that the two situations are comparable - one is trying to get hold of the Ring from an individual bearer in the wilderness, the other is trying to get into a city by breaking its gate. His power & the question of whether or not it is enhanced at one point by Sauron doesn't seem to come into it. Frodo was never separated from the WK by city walls. If he had been behind such walls on Amon Hen, & if the WK had had a battering ram at his disposal, along with a massive army, I'm sure he would have taken the same approach to getting at him.

The question, to my mind, is if the WK had been in the same position (with armies & weapons) at the beginning of the hunt for the Ring as he was at the end would he have behaved differently - was he more powerful at the Siege than at Weathertop, or was he just restricted by the means he had at hand? I'd favour the latter.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see that the two situations are comparable - one is trying to get hold of the Ring from an individual bearer in the wilderness, the other is trying to get into a city by breaking its gate.

What I believe the issue to be is that in both occasions - attacking the city and attempting to retrieve the ring from Frodo in various occasions - the WK did use magic, but at definitely different levels, levels which are at odds with what we know of his motivations. Even if we presume that in both occasions the WK used the most of his power (although we agree that the Siege of Gondor was a far lesser reason to do so, than retrieving the ring), there is an obvious difference.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We perhaps should be very careful of interpreting the Nazgul as warriors- a mistake Peter Jackson made from the start, fitting them out with armor and happily lopping off hobbit-heads- culminating in the absurd swordfight on Weathertop (directly contrary to Tolkien's criticisms of the Z script).

Leaving out the W-K, who appears certainly to outclass the rest, the 8 Associate Nazgul are never once depicted as wielding physical weapons (Frodo's vision at the Ford, of course, is of the Riders as they are on the "other side.")* They operate by fear, or by breaking morale. (As an old grognard, or player of board war-games, I would have killed for some unit which automatically exacted a -5 morale penalty on all enemy units!!) Yet this itself is a weapon with physical consequences, as we learn that a good dose of Black Breath can indeed prove fatal- indeed, Grima "came near to death by terror." In The Hunt for the Ring, the BR "drove off" the Rangers at Sarn Ford (after dark fell). We do learn that some of these were indeed "slain:" but was this by physical weaponry, or Black Breath?


*It's a very common misconception, not restricted to PJ, that the Nazgul raided the Prancing Pony. They didn't. Read closely and you'll see that it was Bill Ferney and the Southerner, perhaps with Harry Goatleaf, acting on the BR's instructions).