The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

In itself the breaking of the Gates proves nothing about whether the WK had 'extra demonic force'

True, not itself. But taking into consideration that the reader doesn't see the WK display such power, although he had far more reasons to do so previously, I believe the question of added force is a pertinent one. Capturing Gondor with a huge army presents a less pressing reason to use full power than capturing the one ring, especially if under dismaying threats and no restriction of secrecy.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

True, not itself. But taking into consideration that the reader doesn't see the WK display such power, although he had far more reasons to do so previously, I believe the question of added force is a pertinent one. Capturing Gondor with a huge army presents a less pressing reason to use full power than capturing the one ring, especially if under dismaying threats and no restriction of secrecy.

The 'gates' issue, to me, comes down to the simple question of whether Grond could have taken down the gates eventually, & I see no reason to believe it would not. The WK's contribution, as I read it, is to speed up the inevitable & add a bit of 'spectacle' (bit like Gandalf's addition of 'white horses' to the Bruinen flood). You'd have to be able to argue that the gates were so strong that Grond could never have brought them down on its own, & that the WK's own innate power could not achieve that even with the use of Grond before you could offer the destruction of the gates up as evidence of 'enhanced demonic force' in the sense of a power up from Sauron.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

The 'gates' issue, to me, comes down to the simple question of whether Grond could have taken down the gates eventually, & I see no reason to believe it would not. The WK's contribution, as I read it, is to speed up the inevitable & add a bit of 'spectacle'

I agree. By and large, I was trying to make the same point, that there was no extremely pressing need for the WK to use such magic power - unlike when trying to capture the ring, when that particular need was evidently present, but he didn't use such power. When comparing these two situations, the direct meaning of "added force" is the relevant one.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I agree. By and large, I was trying to make the same point, that there was no extremely pressing need for the WK to use such magic power - unlike when trying to capture the ring, when that particular need was evidently present, but he didn't use such power. When comparing these two situations, the direct meaning of "added force" is the relevant one.

I don't see that the two situations are comparable - one is trying to get hold of the Ring from an individual bearer in the wilderness, the other is trying to get into a city by breaking its gate. His power & the question of whether or not it is enhanced at one point by Sauron doesn't seem to come into it. Frodo was never separated from the WK by city walls. If he had been behind such walls on Amon Hen, & if the WK had had a battering ram at his disposal, along with a massive army, I'm sure he would have taken the same approach to getting at him.

The question, to my mind, is if the WK had been in the same position (with armies & weapons) at the beginning of the hunt for the Ring as he was at the end would he have behaved differently - was he more powerful at the Siege than at Weathertop, or was he just restricted by the means he had at hand? I'd favour the latter.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see that the two situations are comparable - one is trying to get hold of the Ring from an individual bearer in the wilderness, the other is trying to get into a city by breaking its gate.

What I believe the issue to be is that in both occasions - attacking the city and attempting to retrieve the ring from Frodo in various occasions - the WK did use magic, but at definitely different levels, levels which are at odds with what we know of his motivations. Even if we presume that in both occasions the WK used the most of his power (although we agree that the Siege of Gondor was a far lesser reason to do so, than retrieving the ring), there is an obvious difference.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We perhaps should be very careful of interpreting the Nazgul as warriors- a mistake Peter Jackson made from the start, fitting them out with armor and happily lopping off hobbit-heads- culminating in the absurd swordfight on Weathertop (directly contrary to Tolkien's criticisms of the Z script).

Leaving out the W-K, who appears certainly to outclass the rest, the 8 Associate Nazgul are never once depicted as wielding physical weapons (Frodo's vision at the Ford, of course, is of the Riders as they are on the "other side.")* They operate by fear, or by breaking morale. (As an old grognard, or player of board war-games, I would have killed for some unit which automatically exacted a -5 morale penalty on all enemy units!!) Yet this itself is a weapon with physical consequences, as we learn that a good dose of Black Breath can indeed prove fatal- indeed, Grima "came near to death by terror." In The Hunt for the Ring, the BR "drove off" the Rangers at Sarn Ford (after dark fell). We do learn that some of these were indeed "slain:" but was this by physical weaponry, or Black Breath?


*It's a very common misconception, not restricted to PJ, that the Nazgul raided the Prancing Pony. They didn't. Read closely and you'll see that it was Bill Ferney and the Southerner, perhaps with Harry Goatleaf, acting on the BR's instructions).

[Boromir88]

What I believe the issue to be is that in both occasions - attacking the city and attempting to retrieve the ring from Frodo in various occasions - the WK did use magic, but at definitely different levels, levels which are at odds with what we know of his motivations.~Raynor

No, just that the situations were different. Getting the Ring was the most important goal, but let's not forget at Pelennor Fields, by this time Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron, causing Sauron to believe that Isildur's heir would use the Ring against him. This causes the hasty attack on Gondor, so the Siege of Minas Tirith is arguably just as important of a motive for the Witch-King as was trying to get the Ring.

As davem cogently explained the situations are quite different. On one side the Witch-King is trying to hunt down a hobbit that carries a Ring, but he is also looking for information. He doesn't want to frighten informants to death (or go busting down gates) and he isn't this agent of death as WCH explains. So, he has to conceal his power as he had done when he found Grima.

When he faces Gandalf on Amon Sul, than we see some sparks flying around. I fail to see why we would assume the pretty lights were all Gandalf's...as the Witch-King was referred to as a 'great sorcerer' several times.

At Pelennor, the situation calls for him to display his full power (as what we could say happened when he first faced Gandalf on Weathertop). As he is not looking for information, or for a hobbit that carries a Ring, he's trying to:

1. Destroy Minas Tirith
2. Faces a much stronger opponent in Gandalf

Also, I don't think obloquy is twisting around anything, there is a difference between....

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.'

and

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Or let me try to put it this way...what is scarier? A dark figure, creepy looking Wraith who comes up and asks for directions or the same said wraith who is commanding an army of 45,000+ and is out to kill you?

I don't see how breaking down the gate and his tricks is a force that the Witch-King was incapable of displaying before Pelennor Fields. Because of the several instances where he is referred to as a 'great sorcerer,' also in his bout with Gandalf on Weathertop. The reason the Witch-King doesn't display this 'gate busting' power before is because there is no need for it, there is no reason to do so. He is trying to gather information on the Ring and ultimately end up bringing it back to Sauron, very different from trying to obliterate a city and beat an opponent far greater than him.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

So, he has to conceal his power as he had done when he found Grima.

His power at that time, as it has been noted several times in this thread, last time by CSteefel, is mainly fear. That power, as The hunt for the ring, UT, informs us, cannot be in fact concealed, being the major drawback of using the nazgul. What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot. The fact of the matter remains that, instead of confronting his enemies - as his power you attribute him at that time warranted -, he rather bids his time, waits for the morgul blade to take effect, flees from Aragorn and all that.

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.'

and

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Then again, the main differences between these phrasings is not the presence or absence of "an" [I fail to see why each phrasing would exclusively warrant just that one interpretation you gave them] but the meaning of "demonic", which makes this exercise rather useless.

So, clearly the Witch-King must have done some sort of 'gate-busting' sorcery before Pelennor Fields, or he would not have been known to people as being a sorcerer.

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

And the Witch-King, seeing Gandalf was standing in his way completely unafraid, leaves that situation to go tend to another.

It's not because he sees him unafraid that he leaves.