New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Lindale]

Nice arguments everyone, for those pros and cons the silmaril-being-the-arkenstone. Although little Lindale's opinion is this:

‘And they knew that those jewels could not be found and brought together again, unless the world be broken and remade.’

Logically, an argument with an AND has to have all its premises true to make it valid. So... the Arkenstone can't be a Silmaril, it just isn't valid at least logically. Even if we take the argument that the world has been remade by the fall of Numenor.

I don't know how to put links, but you can Google it: pictures of our very own Mayon Volcano, a perfect cone. Unless I am heavily mistaken it is on the plains of Bicol region. So I can't think it's valid to assume that the Lonely mountain is an inactive volcano. Then again, how many volcanoes are there in Middle Earth? Mount Doom, if you will the Lonely Mountain, and what else? I've read somewhere back in high school earth science that if the earth had no volcanoes, then random parts of the land would have lava gushing upwards (I can't find the right words, but I hope you get it.)

And this. At some point in the past, the lonely mountain, if it is truly a volcano, should have erupted at least once in over five thousand years. After the fall of Beleriand Elves have lived in Rivendell, Lorien, Mirkwood, and Eriador, not to mention the mortals in Dale and the ancestors of the Rohirrim--do they not have any records of any eruptions, anyone noticing that smoke and lava running down the slopes? But if it isn't a volcano, then how did the Arkenstone come from the Lonely Mountain? Unless it was an extraterrestrial diamond (though it is unlikely): a meteor or an asteroid, one of Varda's stars (because where would it have come from anyway, but whether it is Varda's star or not is quite irrelevant), falls (remember that Eol got his black metal, what's it called again, from a meteorite) and thus delivers a carbonado kind of diamond.

So there. I might be really wrong about this, but... I disagree with the Lonely Mountain being a volcano and the Arkenstone being a Silmaril. Oh well. A fun thread!

[Aiwendil]

Logically, an argument with an AND has to have all its premises true to make it valid. So... the Arkenstone can't be a Silmaril, it just isn't valid at least logically. Even if we take the argument that the world has been remade by the fall of Numenor.

I don't quite follow you. Forgive the completely irrelevant foray into logic, but meseems that this quote:

‘And they knew that those jewels could not be found and brought together again, unless the world be broken and remade.’

. . . would be parsed thus in sentential logic:

~(Br & R) -> ~(F & BT)

. . . where 'Br' is 'The world is broken', 'R' is 'The world is remade', 'F' is 'The Silmarils are found', and 'BT' is 'The Silmarils are brought together again'. Strictly speaking, the statement allows the Silmarils to be found (even if the world is not broken and remade) as long as they are not brought together again. And if the world was indeed 'broken and remade' then nothing whatsoever is ruled out.

Of course, that kind of literal-minded reading is rather out of place here.

Anyway, I still haven't finished Return to Bag-End, but I look forward to what Rateliff has to say about the Arkenstone.

[Lindale]

Touche, Aiwendil, about the lgic thingy. I'l have to review it again!!

[Palrun-Enda]

I have to agree with Findegil here. When I first read the Hobbit, after the Silmarilion, The fact that the Arkenstone had its own light made this idea occure to me.

We know that the elves were able to essentially mass produce gems in Valanor. Baring the constant assistance of a Valar or Maya, they had to have been able to produce the heat and pressure necessary to create these stones.

If they could do this in their forges, I don't see how the heat of the fires of the worlds heart and the pressure from thousands of tons of rock couldn't do the same.

I recall a passage in the Silmarilion where it talks about the steps in the creation of diamond which I recall had opal and pearl as intermediate steps. Also, in the description of the creation of the silmarils there was a comment about how the other gems of the elves had no inner light.

These two fact, to me, point to the Arkenstone being a silmaril. I disagree that the long darkness was the cause of its dimness. All three silmarils were in Angband in an essentially light less state for centuries. Instead, I belive this is further evidence for the Arkenstone as the silmaril of Earth.

If the silmaril was in the molten heart of the earth, a layer of lesser gems could have accumulated on it. This substance would be softer then the silmaril (although everything is softer then the silmarils) and would have been a less perfect transmitter of light to and from the gem.

The other substance might also explain the lack of lusting after the gem. As elves and men were not effected everywhere in Arda by the silmarils so there must have been a factor of distance. Also when in the bowels of Carcharoth the hunters did not lust after the gem. This points to other material insulating the children against the desire to possess the silmarils.

I do wonder though why Ulmo or Osse have not gotten the other one. I mean they have free reign of the ocean and the thing is impossibly valuable and extraordinarily beautiful. It seems like lazyness that they haven't recovered that one.

Or perhaps they have and Tolkien didn't relate it. Or perhaps the Valar have some knowledge we were not given.

Just my ideas.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lindale

And this. At some point in the past, the lonely mountain, if it is truly a volcano, should have erupted at least once in over five thousand years. After the fall of Beleriand Elves have lived in Rivendell, Lorien, Mirkwood, and Eriador, not to mention the mortals in Dale and the ancestors of the Rohirrim--do they not have any records of any eruptions, anyone noticing that smoke and lava running down the slopes.

But if it isn't a volcano, then how did the Arkenstone come from the Lonely Mountain? Unless it was an extraterrestrial diamond (though it is unlikely): a meteor or an asteroid, one of Varda's stars (because where would it have come from anyway, but whether it is Varda's star or not is quite irrelevant), falls (remember that Eol got his black metal, what's it called again, from a meteorite) and thus delivers a carbonado kind of diamond.

So there. I might be really wrong about this, but... I disagree with the Lonely Mountain being a volcano and the Arkenstone being a Silmaril. Oh well. A fun thread!

Apart from the fact that volcanoes go extinct eventually, they can also be dormant longer than five thousand years. There are many like that near where I live. So I don't think we need an "extraterrestrial" origin for the Arkenstone.

But, like you, I also disagree that the Arkenstone is a silmaril, because a.) it is my belief that Tolkien would have left much more definite hints if it were the case, and b.) the "for" case relies on what seem to me some very strained arguments, as:

I'd say that one could say (contrary to the opinion that someone had previously expressed) that the cutting and fashioning could be the scraping off of accumulated gunk from the surface of the gem.

If the silmaril was in the molten heart of the earth, a layer of lesser gems could have accumulated on it. This substance would be softer then the silmaril (although everything is softer then the silmarils) and would have been a less perfect transmitter of light to and from the gem.

The other substance might also explain the lack of lusting after the gem. As elves and men were not effected everywhere in Arda by the silmarils so there must have been a factor of distance.

All very ingenious, but my general feeling is that if you have to jump through so many hoops in order to make your case, it's probably wrong.

(And sorry, Alfirin, but the same applies to Arkenstone-as-Fëanorian lamp.)

[Morthoron]

Simply put, on a number of occasions a Simaril is referred to as a "holy jewel", and burns the hands of those who, shall we say, are not worthy of handling it. I would be hard put to find a reason for Thorin, ultimately a very greedy dwarf, being worthy of holding a Silmaril.

In addition, Maglor and Maedhros rid themselves of their Silmarils along the shores of the Belegaer, not eastward over two mountain ranges and several hundred miles inland near Erebor; therefore, it really is nonsensical to even have this discussion. Silmarils do not have the ability to fly, which is what would be required to support such a hypothesis.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In addition, Maglor and Maedhros rid themselves of their Silmarils along the shores of the Belegaer, not eastward over two mountain ranges and several hundred miles inland near Erebor; therefore, it really is nonsensical to even have this discussion. Silmarils do not have the ability to fly, which is what would be required to support such a hypothesis.

Just to play devil's advocate...
If the Silmaril really did get carried by magma, couldn't it easily get carried by the convection currents in the mantle? (If we assume that Middle Earth at that point worked in the same way that our world does.)

[Findegil]

If the Silmaril really did get carried by magma, couldn't it easily get carried by the convection currents in the mantle?

Especially if we consider that at the same time Beleriand was sinking very rapidly which for sure did create very turbulent movements underneath.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Nerwen]

I'm sorry, but that's just another example of what I'm talking about, and has already been suggested– in fact as I understand it, the "Silmaril-Arkenstone" theory assumes something of the kind. Again that's what's wrong with it– it rests on a whole series of improbabilities.

Let's just examine the whole case, shall we?

*If the Silmaril got carried hundreds of miles beneath the Earth's crust to Erebor

and

*if it somehow became completely coated with "lesser gems" in the process

and

*if this took place *really quickly*, between the War of Wrath and whenever Erebor became inactive (which can't have been long afterwards and was just as likely earlier)

and

*if the dwarves, despite being master craftsmen, somehow failed to recognise they were dealing with a cut stone, even while they were shaping it themselves...

...you see the problem?

[skip spence]

I'm with Nerwen here, it's highly unlikely that the Arkenstone is meant to be one of the Silmarils.

That said, there are sure lots of similarities between the two gems and they are hardly coincidental. Tolkien probably had the Silmarils in mind when he described the Arkenstone - he of course created the backstory of the Silmarillion long before he ever thought of Hobbits - and recycled that particular idea (a beautiful, radiant gem-stone that stirs up greed despite it's pure origins) for his new children's book, among many other recycled ideas from the Silmarillion, a work he probably never thought would see the inside of a printing press anyway.