Time to fix Gandalf versus the Witchking

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not speak or write. Dwarves indeed have abilities. They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so. They are fierce fighters when aroused and have amazing abilities with stone and rock. Yes indeedy they have some very wonderful abilities.

.

They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so See you assume the wrong endurance, you assume it is endurance to do backbreaking jobs and only backbreaking jobs. It's your assumption and nothing more.

As for the linemen, they run more than 10 miles in full gear. And they are usually stocky men, much like dwarves. They do the 'back breaking' work on the field, they are not the svelt thin recievers who can run fast. But they run just as many miles as the recievers do, not as fast, but they still run it. And yes they do it for conditioning but with their full set of pads on, which are bigger and heavier than recievers. And as any good football coach knows it has to be with all the gear and pads on or they can't do it in the game. The same can be said for Gimli, sure he had all his gear on, sure he couldn't run the fastest, but that does not mean he could not run. Put Gimli's gear on Aragorn and I would bet Aragorn would crumble in less than a day.

And could you point out where it says Shadowfax is the best of a chosen breed of creatures created by the Valar in Valinor and exported to Middle-earth for very special purposes. Because the Sil and LoTR I have read says he is the descendant of those horses, not those horses. Shadowfax descended from Felarof, Eorl the Young's horse. The best of Shadowfax's bread was Felarof. Is Felarof Shadofax's daddy, grand daddy, great grand daddy? It also says the mearas lived the same length as men in one place, so that would put a whole bunch of generations between Felarof and Shadowfax, even if the men were Dunedain.



Alatar,

I have said the Dwarves were made by Aule, a Valar.

[Sauron the White]

from Quempel

Because the Sil and LoTR I have read says he is the descendant of those horses, not those horses.

Are you denying that Shadowfax was a member of the meares, a direct descendent of the special breed created in Valinor by the Valar? If you agree that he was one, I need not continue. If you deny that he was one, there is no point in arguing with you. Either way I see no reason to continue going around like two hamsters in a wheel.

Again, about the football lineman running ten miles? I have no memory of that debate. Again, this is this. This isn't something else. This is this. Dwarves are not football players. Their gear is not a football uniform. And now you bring Aragorn into it? This nearly leaves me speechless. Nearly.

[Galendor]

Originally posted by Alatar:

Do you have a list of scenes, and if you have that much time on your hands , could you give the details - whether the scene should be deleted or altered?

No, Alatar - I spoke too carelessly and I apologize for it. I don't really have the time or expertise to compile such a list to back up my claim, so it was a pointless claim to make. I can think offhand of scenes that I might like to see eliminated, but as far as arguing for alterations I am probably not up to it in expertise. Sorry again.

But I do tend to agree with Quempel on the issue of Shadowfax, dwarves, and physiological endurance. If you were to poke and prod Shadowfax, would he not feel like a real horse? And if you were to (sorry) dissect Shadowfax, would he not be composed of tissues? And if you looked closer, would not these tissues be composed of cells? And then proteins and nucleic acids?

Or was he composed of pure magic designed to look and act like a real horse?

I suspect that Shadowfax looked, felt, and smelled like a real horse. If he had a father and a mother, then I would imagine he came into being when a sperm cell fertilized an egg cell, and grew from there. He seemed to exist in the physical world, he did get tired if memory serves, gravity seemed to have an effect on him, he did not fly but seemed held to the ground by the same force that held Gimli to the ground. But he raced along far faster and further than any horse we know of. So why shouldn't Gimli be able to run longer and faster than one of us can here in the "real" world? He was a heroic, stout little member of a different species than us, so we can only guess at the metabolic pathways governing his physiology. And Gimli might have a long history of strengthening his body by running up mountains, for all we know. Plus, the oxygen content of the Middle Earth atmosphere might have been higher, permitting a longer run.

Besides, if we are willing to make an argument as STW does that Gimli should be constrained by the biochemistry that governs our bodies, then where does it all end with science versus LOTR? A physicist could come here and make the argument that there is no way that putting a ring of metal on your finger can make your physical form, and everything you are wearing, become invisible (i.e. no longer absorb, reflect, or refract light), especially while you remain solid and able to interact with other physical objects (pick them up, kick them, etc.).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Galendor

No, Alatar - I spoke too carelessly and I apologize for it. I don't really have the time or expertise to compile such a list to back up my claim, so it was a pointless claim to make. I can think offhand of scenes that I might like to see eliminated, but as far as arguing for alterations I am probably not up to it in expertise. Sorry again.

Don't take it that way. I hope that it didn't seem that I was demanding anything. I always like to hear what others think about the movies.

Is there any scene that you would 'fix?' If so, how?

But I do tend to agree with Quempel on the issue of Shadowfax, dwarves, and physiological endurance. If you were to poke and prod Shadowfax, would he not feel like a real horse? And if you were to (sorry) dissect Shadowfax, would he not be composed of tissues? And if you looked closer, would not these tissues be composed of cells? And then proteins and nucleic acids?

If you ate him, would he not taste like chicken?

So why shouldn't Gimli be able to run longer and faster than one of us can here in the "real" world? He was a heroic, stout little member of a different species than us, so we can only guess at the metabolic pathways governing his physiology. And Gimli might have a long history of strengthening his body by running up mountains, for all we know. Plus, the oxygen content of the Middle Earth atmosphere might have been higher, permitting a longer run.

Maybe the Endless Stair was a dwarven training course.

Besides, if we are willing to make an argument as STW does that Gimli should be constrained by the biochemistry that governs our bodies, then where does it all end with science versus LOTR? A physicist could come here and make the argument that there is no way that putting a ring of metal on your finger can make your physical form, and everything you are wearing, become invisible (i.e. no longer absorb, reflect, or refract light), especially while you remain solid and able to interact with other physical objects (pick them up, kick them, etc.).

I guess the discussion is, what works within the fantasy world, and what sticks out like a sore foot (from all of that running)? Like I've always said, we've got Balrogs and wraiths and ghost armies, so what's a marathoner Dwarf between you and me?

[Quempel]

That's my point, if we accept all the other 'fantasy' in LoTR, what's the problem with Gimli being able to run. Facts are horses can't and don't run like Shadowfax, heck even Brego is an extraordinary horse in real horse standards, come to think of it so is Bill the Pony.

If we are going to apply human standards to Gimli, then we need to apply those same standards to Legolas, Aragorn, Frodo, Sam, and every one else in the books and movies. So if we do that Elves are nothing more than people who have really screwed up calendars and only have one month years. Aragorn couldn't possibly be an 80 plus year old man so he has one of those really silly Elvin calendars too. Frodo and Sam would have the same knee, back and other health issues that modern Little People have and would in no way be able to walk anywhere near as many miles as they did. And as for the Witch King...in reality we don't have zombies so the question of him being able to beat Gandalf is a non-issue. Well then again in reality we don't have demi-gods pretending to be wizards either, so I guess no Gandalf either.

But in the movie I think PJ missed the boat with WK beating down Gandalf, it was bad and made me feel like Gandalf had suffered a needless character assassination.


And StW's diaroma's are very nice and must have taken a great deal of work and time.

[Sauron the White]

Thank you to both alatar and Quempel for the kind words on the dioramas.

There are those who may argue that because the genre is fantasy, anything goes no matter how improbable or other impossible. If an author wants to have an air force of 400 pound warthogs flying to Venus to do battle with blue six armed amazons, well, that is the authors right. I would say only if those several components are part and parcel of what the author has established for the norms of that world and has laid a proper foundation for such events and creatures.

One of the things that makes LOTR such a great book is the level of superb writing and craftmanship that went into it. It seems that JRRT labored and slaved over every word choice and went much much further than even the most diligent of authors in constructing a world which may be fantasy but also makes perfect sense.

And there is the problem of ultra marathoning dwarves. It even defies the foundations of Tolkiens own world. Nowhere does it say that dwarves are natural distance runners despite the author giving them a physiology that completely defies such abilities. Nowhere does it say that Dwarves - unlike the chief of the mearas - can run and run and run and do so on a regular basis which would train them for such achievements. Tolkien does not lay that foundation.

One can make a case for both Legolas and Aragorn as several here have done in the previous discussion and I say the wisdom of their reasoning and conceded the possibility of their achievement in Middle-earth. With Gimli, Tolkien simply pulled this out of thin air and wrote that Gimli did it despite all reason, logic, physiology, experience and even his own mythology saying there is no foundation for it.

"Its only a fantasy" is not a blank check for clumsily including a poorly researched passage that just does not make sense in the confines of the world JRRT himself created.

[Galendor]

Originally posted by Sauron the White

There is no foundation for ultra-marathon running in any account of the rest of the Dwarves in any of the books.

STW, is there any foundation for ultra-marathon running by Aragorn or Legolas? Neither of them were trained specifically as distance runners, were they? Why is it more reasonable that they, but not Gimli, could do this long run?

As already discussed, Tolkien described dwarves as having great stamina and being very tough. I assume Tolkien meant this description relative to other races of Middle Earth (like men or elves). And I like to think Gimli's stamina and toughness was particularly high, even compared to other dwarves. So for me, it seems ok (and somewhat supported by the text) that if Aragorn and Legolas could make this run, so could Gimli. It probably hurt a lot, and he was terribly sore, awful chafing in the worst places, etc.

To be clear: I acknowledge that by real world standards, none of them had the right physical training for a sudden 3-day ultra-marathon. But if Aragorn and Legolas could make this run, then I think Tolkien's description of dwarf endurance gives us at least some reason to believe Gimli could do it to.

He probably would have had a hard time keeping up simply due to his shorter legs. But if they covered 45 miles per day for 3 days, and ran for 16 hours per day, they would need an average pace of 2.8 miles per hour. That isn't much faster than a brisk walk. Do I have my numbers wrong?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Quempel

Alatar,

I have said the Dwarves were made by Aule, a Valar.

Sorry; I started with some point, began the research, then thought...what am I doing? Been here, done this wind up before.

Most likely I could post for both sides, having read the arguments and know (somewhat) the posters' points. Even considered using StW's superb miniature work as part of a reply, but...

I'm back to sitting this out until Eönwë responds to my last post.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm back to sitting this out until Eönwë responds to my last post.

Can I give it a try?

While Gandalf was indeed Olorin the Maiar, he was not quite a "normal" Maiar. Unlike what all Ainur could do, namely taking a "human-like" shape, Olorin was "incarnated" in Gandalf. So even though Olorin was a Maiar and unkilable, Gandalf was something else, and he could be killed. As a matter of fact, the Balrog kills Gandalf... and then he is sent back (reborn, in a way).

Let's say that the WK stuck a sword right through Gandalf... Gandalf would've been dead. Not Olorin, and perhaps Olorin would've been ticked and wrecked holy (he's a demi-god after all) chaos on everything that was going on.

Still, I don't think that the WK had a reasonable chance of killing Gandalf, even if it was technically possible. As mentioned before, Gandalf defeated a Balrog, which is FAR stronger than the WK.

Having said that, and going back to the glycogen comment, what if dwarves had an exo-skeleton made of Chitin, like most bugs do?

I mean, they lived in dark places, literally under a rock... furthermore, what if dwarves could metabolize their exo-skeleton to allow them to perform "super-dwarven" feats of skill?

And what if Shadofax's mane was actualy a storage of polysacharides?

~Farael, the biochemist -_-

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Farael

~Farael, the biochemist -_-

Oh no!

How we've gotten to dwarven exoskeletons from fixing a scene from Peter Jackson's LotR is anyone's guess.

PJ rules out exoskeletons; you see the endos when the FotR enter Moria. Haven't found a Tolkien reference for or against (though surely in Three Ages someone would have noticed and remarked on it).

[Sauron the White]

LOTR - At the end of the Chapter The White Rider in THE TWO TOWERS Legolas isspeaking to Gandalf about seein Shadowfax in the distance and says he is

"a very great horse. I have not seen his like before."


"Nor will you again', said Gandalf. 'That is Shadowfax. He is the chief of the Mearas, lord of the horses, and even Theoden, King of Rohan, has never looked on a better.

And earlier, in the chapter The Council of Elrond, Gandalf says of Shadowfax,

"There is one among them might have been foaled in the morning of the world."
That is a reference to th earliest days in Valinor.

Others agree. Here is some info from The Encyclopedia of Arda

In the old north of Middle-earth lived a proud race of wild horses, long-lived, wise and fleet of foot. The legends of Men said that their ancestors had been brought from the West by Béma, their name for the Vala Oromë.

Gimli is but one of many Dwarves with no particular blessings or abilities which would distinguish him from his bretheren. There is no foundation for ultra-marathon running in any account of the rest of the Dwarves in any of the books.

ANd one (hopefully last) other point. It is not my contention that nobody could run 45 miles each day for three days. Highly trained elite ultra marathoners , the elite of the elite, have done that. My contention is that an untrained Dwarf could not. Shadowfax, on the other hand, can run and run and run as Gandalf has said. He is the equal to those extra-highly trained ultra-marathoners.

[Sauron the White]

Estelyn... in fairness I was asked a question by Galendor who asked me for a response after I made a very short joke. I have repeatedly tried to give shorter answers and if you look at my last post in this thread you will see that I asked anyone interested to review the previous threads where this was discussed at length. I share your feelings not to have this thread turned into a discussion that has already been held elsewhere.

My reference to Holy was not of Tolkien - I will be glad to correct that for you with a substitution of a different word.

[Galendor]

I'm sorry, my fault! I am responsible for bringing this up here, not STW. I apologize I was not fully aware that it had been discussed at length already.

STW, thank you very much for directing me to the names of the other threads in which this topic has been discussed. I look forward to reading them.

So I take full responsiblity for this departure from the topic of this thread, and thank you for allowing it to continue as long as it did.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Galendor

I'm sorry, my fault! I am responsible for bringing this up here, not STW. I apologize I was not fully aware that it had been discussed at length already.

STW, thank you very much for directing me to the names of the other threads in which this topic has been discussed. I look forward to reading them.

So I take full responsiblity for this departure from the topic of this thread, and thank you for allowing it to continue as long as it did.

Galendor, no need for you to apologize. We older members should know better. A Wormtongue might easily find me a picker of bones.

Anyway, I'm still interested; what would you change? I could accept all of PJ's LotR EE version in toto if but for one little change. When Gandalf is on the ground, staffless, helpless before the Witch-King, just three seconds before we hear the horns of the Rohirrim, put a slight grin on the old wizard's face.

That's all that I ask.

[Sauron the White]

Those few seconds of the scrubbing green bubbles sweeping away the forces of evil from Minas Tirith. That is a cut I would welcome.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Those few seconds of the scrubbing green bubbles sweeping away the forces of evil from Minas Tirith. That is a cut I would welcome.

Do you mean that you would keep the Green Scrubbers, but not let them clean Minas Tirith, or do away with the GS altogether? The later would take more than just a few seconds of editing.