Time to fix Gandalf versus the Witchking

[Galendor]

There are probably 20 or so scenes in the movies, this among them, that if redone slighly or cut out entirely, would have greatly improved the movies by better matching the books without losing much or any "mass appeal". I wish it had been done! Certainly if Tolkien himself could have been consulted and obeyed, the movies would have been greatly improved, and I think without necessarily alienating those viewers with little or no knowledge of the books, or reducing profits.

Sauron the White - regarding the glycogen use issue in the runner's muscles, if this is a concern then how do we explain Shadowfax? This horse ran at incredible speeds for very long distances, far beyond the ability of any "normal" horse. This isn't physiologically possible in the real world. If an argument is made that Gimli could not sustain his long run, then wouldn't the same argument apply to Shadowfax's performance? If not, why?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Galendor

There are probably 20 or so scenes in the movies, this among them, that if redone slighly or cut out entirely, would have greatly improved the movies by better matching the books without losing much or any "mass appeal". I wish it had been done! Certainly if Tolkien himself could have been consulted and obeyed, the movies would have been greatly improved, and I think without necessarily alienating those viewers with little or no knowledge of the books, or reducing profits.

Do you have a list of scenes, and if you have that much time on your hands , could you give the details - whether the scene should be deleted or altered?

[Eönwë]

I don't like that scene. It is the only scene that it made sense to get rid of (obviously the others had to be cut because otherwise it would be to long, but still, they are good additions). The Witch-king could never even get near beating Gandalf. Olorin (Gandalf) was a Maiar and the witch-king was a human (though I do think he was a "black numenorean" so he might have had some Maiar blood in him after all, but Gandalf is fully Maiar). A human, however powerful, could never kill, or even win a fight against a Maiar. And Olorin was chosen to help the peoples of middle earth, in the same that Eonwe was (not being as strong as the target but still being comparatively strong to them). This scene could never happen. Gandalf killed a Balrog, a Maiar, a being of divine descent, to get beaten by a man? The Balrog, by the way, was not even a servant of Sauron, but of Morgoth, not much weaker than Sauron, in fact. Gandalf was sent by Manwe, and even though he refused at first, Gandalf went for a reason (varda makes a sneaky comment that hints that he is stronger than Saruman (curumo in Valinor). Gandalf is an immortal, and could not properly be killed anyway. Also, the witch-king has neither the authority nor the power to break Gandalf's staff as he did during the movie.

[alatar]

Eönwë, you obviously haven't read the 525 posts on this thread, which will demonstrate, as it did to me, that not everyone sees it your and my way.

Welcome to the Downs, by the by.

[Sauron the White]

from Galendor

Sauron the White - regarding the glycogen use issue in the runner's muscles, if this is a concern then how do we explain Shadowfax? This horse ran at incredible speeds for very long distances, far beyond the ability of any "normal" horse. This isn't physiologically possible in the real world. If an argument is made that Gimli could not sustain his long run, then wouldn't the same argument apply to Shadowfax's performance? If not, why?

Shadowfax is described as one of the mearas - horses of the gods. It was said that Orome brought the first meara to Middle-earth direct from Valinor. I believe that puts him in a far different class than a mere dwarf.

[Quempel]

So Gimli is to be judged by real human standards, yet Shadowfax is to not be judged by real horse standards? Aulë created the dwarves. If Shadowfax is a creation of a Vala he is allowed special powers. But 'mere' dwarves, also a creation of a Vala, are not allowed any special powers. Which is it? Vala created beings have some special ablities or they don't. This is this.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel - you are confusing apples with cinderblocks. The Mearas were creatures of the Valar in Valinor and then exported to Middle- earth by Orome with their special genetics, abilities and talents. Dwarves are a creature of Middle-earth. They were not given the special abilities from Valinor as the mearas were.

They are two extremely different races and breeds of creatures. It is not logical or intellectually consistent to infer that the rules which apply to one apply to the other simply because they both occupy Middle-earth in the later part of the Third Age.

[Quempel]

The dwarves were created by a Vala, in middle earth before Valinor was created. It's quite intresting the logic twist you seem to be using. If the story doesn't fit in your world you twist it around so it does.

Unlike Elves and Humans or, in Middle Earth, Men, the Dwarves are not counted among the Children of Ilúvatar. They were created by Aulë the Valar.


And wasn't Shadowfax descended from Felarof, Eorl the Young's horse, and the original lord of all horses-the first mearas? but Shadowfax was not an actual meara that was from Valinor, but a meara from middle earth descended from the meara's of Valinor? Sure he was the horse lord of the third age, but he was not Felarof.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel ... could you please cite where it says that either
a- the Valar gave short, heavy, dwarves in cumbersome gear the power to run 45 miles per day without training, or
b- one of the Valar waved a magic wand and specifically gave Gimli that same ability

You are confusing two very different things here or are perhaps really stretching a bad argument for what purpose I do not know.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, in a world where we can have semi-divine superhorses, why should we talk about 'mere' Dwarves? We know very little about Dwarven physiology, but what we do know says that they are amazingly tough, strong, immune to disease, and have amazing stamina.

Why therefore must we assume that Dwarves' physical chemistry is like ours?

You ask for evidence- the evidence is that Gimli did it.

[Sauron the White]

from William Cloud Hicklin

You ask for evidence- the evidence is that Gimli did it.

What that is evidence of is poor writing and lack of knowledge on the part of the author. It is very obvious that JRR Tolkien knew nothing of long distance running and it shows in this very example.

Is there evidence that Dwarves could do this feat other than Gimli? I see none and none has ever been presented when I asked for it.

I realize I am throwing stones through somebodys stained glass windows of the cathedral which gaurds the altar upon which they worship, BUT ... its evidence of poor research by Tolkien himself. You see good people, JRRT was human. He wrote one heck of a book - my personal favorite book for what that may be worth - but he was a human being and is such is human and flawed and can make mistakes. That does not make LOTR a bad book. Its still a great book. But its not divinely inspired and perfect.

from Quempel

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that dwarves have any ablities at all and assign to them human standards, when they are not human. Elves having special ablities is ok, dwarves no. Horses having special abilities is ok, dwarves no.

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not speak or write. Dwarves indeed have abilities. They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so. They are fierce fighters when aroused and have amazing abilities with stone and rock. Yes indeedy they have some very wonderful abilities.

However, the ability to run 45 miles each day, and then repeat it for a second day and then a third day, all with no mentioned trained, all wearing heavy and cumbersome gear, and over varied terrain is not one of those abilities.


Shadowfax is not a mere horse. He is the best of a chosen breed of creatures created by the Valar in Valinor and exported to Middle-earth for very special purposes. He is not a mere horse.

I am supposing you have never seen a football lineman run 10 miles a day with full equipment on.

There are many things in this world I have not yet seen and that is one of them. So what? This is this. This is not something else. We were not discussing the abilities of football lineman to run ten miles in full uniform.

[alatar]

Note that Dwarves, made by Aule, were designed to live in a world in which Melkor ruled supreme. That's from the Sil, though I haven't my copy on me to quote chapter and verse. Was the original horse a spirit, or something created?

But we've covered all of this before.

StW, I keep forgetting that you're the diorama guy.

[Quempel]

Well if Tolkien didn't have any knowledge about running, then it can be said he had even less knowledge of horse running, because no horse could do what Shadowfax did. And since we are applying the same standards to dwarves as we do real humans, it is only fair to apply the real horse standards to Shadowfax.


And I highly doubt Tolkien knew nothing of running, being he was in the armed forces during WWI, I would imagine that he actually did have to run while in the armed forces, since it's a pretty standard requirement for a standard soldier.

[Sauron the White]

Yes Alatar we have covered all this before. And in doing so cheesed off a bunch of people who kept saying ENOUGH ALREADY.

Dioramas? Yes I remember dioramas. In case anyone cares

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17649735@N00/?saved=1

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not speak or write. Dwarves indeed have abilities. They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so. They are fierce fighters when aroused and have amazing abilities with stone and rock. Yes indeedy they have some very wonderful abilities.

.

They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so See you assume the wrong endurance, you assume it is endurance to do backbreaking jobs and only backbreaking jobs. It's your assumption and nothing more.

As for the linemen, they run more than 10 miles in full gear. And they are usually stocky men, much like dwarves. They do the 'back breaking' work on the field, they are not the svelt thin recievers who can run fast. But they run just as many miles as the recievers do, not as fast, but they still run it. And yes they do it for conditioning but with their full set of pads on, which are bigger and heavier than recievers. And as any good football coach knows it has to be with all the gear and pads on or they can't do it in the game. The same can be said for Gimli, sure he had all his gear on, sure he couldn't run the fastest, but that does not mean he could not run. Put Gimli's gear on Aragorn and I would bet Aragorn would crumble in less than a day.

And could you point out where it says Shadowfax is the best of a chosen breed of creatures created by the Valar in Valinor and exported to Middle-earth for very special purposes. Because the Sil and LoTR I have read says he is the descendant of those horses, not those horses. Shadowfax descended from Felarof, Eorl the Young's horse. The best of Shadowfax's bread was Felarof. Is Felarof Shadofax's daddy, grand daddy, great grand daddy? It also says the mearas lived the same length as men in one place, so that would put a whole bunch of generations between Felarof and Shadowfax, even if the men were Dunedain.



Alatar,

I have said the Dwarves were made by Aule, a Valar.

[Sauron the White]

from Quempel

Because the Sil and LoTR I have read says he is the descendant of those horses, not those horses.

Are you denying that Shadowfax was a member of the meares, a direct descendent of the special breed created in Valinor by the Valar? If you agree that he was one, I need not continue. If you deny that he was one, there is no point in arguing with you. Either way I see no reason to continue going around like two hamsters in a wheel.

Again, about the football lineman running ten miles? I have no memory of that debate. Again, this is this. This isn't something else. This is this. Dwarves are not football players. Their gear is not a football uniform. And now you bring Aragorn into it? This nearly leaves me speechless. Nearly.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Quempel

Alatar,

I have said the Dwarves were made by Aule, a Valar.

Sorry; I started with some point, began the research, then thought...what am I doing? Been here, done this wind up before.

Most likely I could post for both sides, having read the arguments and know (somewhat) the posters' points. Even considered using StW's superb miniature work as part of a reply, but...

I'm back to sitting this out until Eönwë responds to my last post.