Tolkien the freemason/ Priory of Sionist/Gnostic?

[Aiwendil]

But the gnostic symbolism is definitely undeniable. I mean, it shows that Aragorn (which some people compare to Jesus) is definitely (in the Lord of the rings) not celebate, I mean, he even had a son!

"Symbolism" of this kind was, however, repeatedly and convincingly denied by Tolkien. It also seems to me that even if one were to engage in the misguided game of looking for Christ-figures in LotR, the more natural choices would be Gandalf and, perhaps, Frodo.

[davem]

I suspect one could find all kinds of 'occult' resonances if one looked - but I don't think they were used in the way that is being implied by some. Tolkien stated that he wasn't a student of fairy stories, & that when he read them he sought in them raw material for his own creation. I suspect the same thing was going on here. I can't believe that when Williams, Lewis & Barfield got going at Inklings meetings such arcana wasn't discussed, but I suspect that if Tolkien picked anything up from such discussions it would have been odd images/ideas which he turned to his own uses.

[Aiwendil]

Regarding Williams: It is quite plausible that he would have talked with Tolkien & Lewis of his interest in the occult; and I don't doubt it would have kindled Lewis's interest - but not Tolkien's. Consider Tolkien's later comments on Williams:

I knew Charles Williams well in his last few years . . . But I do not think we influenced one another at all! Too 'set', and too different. We both listened (in C.S.L.'s rooms) to large and largely unintelligible fragments of one another's works read aloud; because C.S.L. (marvellous man) seemed able to enjoy us both. But I think we both found the other's mind (or rather mode of expression, and climate) as impenetrable when cast into 'literature', as we found the other's presence and convseration delightful. (Letter 159)

Later, he went as far as to name Williams as one of the causes of his drifting apart from Lewis (Letter 252); admitting that he (Tolkien) was 'a man of limited sympathies', he said that 'Williams lies almost completely outside them' and that he 'actively disliked his Arthurian-Byzantine mythology' and thought 'it spoiled the trilogy of C.S.L. (a very impressionable, too impressionable, man)' (Letter 259); and he claimed that, though they enjoyed jesting talk, they 'had nothing to say to one another at deeper (or higher) levels' (Letter 276).

I would be very, very surprised if Tolkien was ever influenced by any of Williams's (or anyone else's) interest in the occult. Beyond the quotes above, it just doesn't seem to me that such things would be compatible with Tolkien's basic (literary) outlook.

[davem]

And yet Tolkien was interested in 'occult' subjects - communication across time, telepathy & the nature of other dimensions - in particular Faery - & how they interact with our own. Clearly, these being subjects touched upon by all three Inklings in their fiction, & by Barfield the Anthroposophist, Tolkien would have been up for such discussions (cf the rather arcane subject matters under discussion in The Notion Club Papers).

Now, I know that Carpenter in particular tends to dismiss any notion of the Inklings having any influence on each other's writings, but in a recent study of the Inklings 'The Company They Keep', Diana Glyer explores this whole idea, & apparently (haven't read it, but know people who have) she reads things very differently. I think the case of the excised Epilogue to LotR speaks to a real influence & refutes the theory that Tolkien would have produced exactly what he did if he hadn't been part of the Inklings. Tolkien states that he had read or heard much of Williams' work & clearly Williams' work would have been discussed at Inklings meetings. So, its not a matter of Tolkien either being directly, or consciously, influenced by Williams (or Barfield), but of ideas being batted around, picked up, changed, interpreted & made to fit a writer's needs. We often look to Tolkien's Catholicism & his love of myth as sources for his writings but we can't completely dismiss the idea that he may have picked things up from Inklings' discussions. I just don't see Tolkien listening in to these discussions & refusing to take part, or making a mental note every time the conversation strayed onto such subjects & deciding 'Right - that's something I definitely will exclude in all its possible forms from my writings!' Its the very fact that he didn't believe such things that would make them usable as source material.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by davem

Its the very fact that he didn't believe such things that would make them usable as source material.

Exactly. We write what we don't believe. If it is a fantasy, then people write about things that are not like them, otherwise it would be to close to home, and the book would turn into a narrative of self-opinion. Intersting stories and iseas fuel the authors' minds, not only because they aare so interesting, but because they are different.

[Gwathagor]

Heh heh heh...Charles Williams...that is very, very funny. I've edited transcripts of interviews with friends of Williams (I work at the Marion E. Wade Center), describing his personal mythology and occult practices. He was really, really weird, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone told me that he was involved in all that Dan Brown rubbish.

Tolkien, on the other hand, was about as stubbornly orthodox as they come. No chance, whatsoever.