Astronomy and astrology in Middle-Earth?

[Morwen]

In The Mariner's Wife Meneldur is said to have spent a lot of time contemplating the heavens (at least until he became king) and gathering information on that subject from the Eldar. I believe he also built a tower expressly for the purpose of star gazing.

I can't recall any references to astrology but the appearance of new lights in the sky was seen as significant, e.g. the appearance of the Gil-Estel shortly before the war that ended the first age. In FotR, in (I think) "The Ring goes South" reference is made to a red star, observed by Frodo, shining brightly in the sky. A reference to Mars perhaps, signifying impending war?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

My conclusion: Astronomy - yes, important; Astrology - no, possible

I would agree with that. Though it will be still good to look more on what all could be studied in the skies... for example the problematics of meteorites and similar things (several swords were made of meteoritic iron, as it is mentioned even in the texts you provided links to... anyway, these links are very good, thanks for that, Miggy).

Originally Posted by Morwen

I can't recall any references to astrology but the appearance of new lights in the sky was seen as significant, e.g. the appearance of the Gil-Estel shortly before the war that ended the first age. In FotR, in (I think) "The Ring goes South" reference is made to a red star, observed by Frodo, shining brightly in the sky. A reference to Mars perhaps, signifying impending war?

Well, the case of Eärendil surely is not the "normal" astrology, as it was only one rare occassion. Similarly in Frodo's case, I always considered this star rather being there to evoke the image of the Eye of Sauron (it is said there that it seemed to Frodo like an eye), of course I don't think it was THE Eye, but rather Frodo's subconscious stirred after the recent events transformed this star in his mind to the sign of something scary (reminds me of Lovecraft's "Polaris" and things like "What the Moon brings" here - Frodo's state of mind clearly was not perfectly okay at that time).

[Morwen]

Well, the case of Eärendil surely is not the "normal" astrology, as it was only one rare occassion. Similarly in Frodo's case, I always considered this star rather being there to evoke the image of the Eye of Sauron (it is said there that it seemed to Frodo like an eye), of course I don't think it was THE Eye, but rather Frodo's subconscious stirred after the recent events transformed this star in his mind to the sign of something scary (reminds me of Lovecraft's "Polaris" and things like "What the Moon brings" here - Frodo's state of mind clearly was not perfectly okay at that time).

I'm not suggesting that the appearance of Gil-Estel was "normal" merely that it was thought significant (as it was).

The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.
FotR, The Ring Goes South

I agree that the comparison of the star to an eye is meant to evoke the image of Sauron's Eye. However, Frodo is actually supposed to be observing a bright red star, one that grows ever brighter and such a symbol has been used to signify times of turmoil. There may not be in Middle Earth a practice of observing the movements of the planets and stars to predict events on a personal level. But odd happenings in the heavens may be taken to predict general events and be seen as signs of hope (Gil-Estel) or war (bright red star).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A "star" that changes in brightness can only be a planet, and the red color would suggest that it is Mars. That would be my assumption at any rate. Yes, it evokes the Eye, but since Middle-earth's stars are otherwise like ours (with the exception of the mythological elements like Eärendil; our "morning star" is normally the planet Venus), the most logical assumption would be that the light's source is from the same stars and planets.

[Morwen]

My thinking was that the red "star" is Mars, hence my link between its bright appearance and impending war. If the HP centaurs hade been present in Rivendell at the time they might have told Frodo "Mars is bright tonight".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

I'm not suggesting that the appearance of Gil-Estel was "normal" merely that it was thought significant (as it was).

That's true. But what I wanted to say was that it had nothing to do with astrology. It was a message from the Valar, and it did not have anything to do with astrology like that some astrologues in M-E would sit down and say "Eärendil rises in the west and Jupiter is in opposition so that means Morgoth will be overthrown". The question posed was about astrology (and astronomy) and this is not astrology in the way the word is understood here - this was reaction to a special event that happened only once.

I agree that the comparison of the star to an eye is meant to evoke the image of Sauron's Eye. However, Frodo is actually supposed to be observing a bright red star, one that grows ever brighter and such a symbol has been used to signify times of turmoil. There may not be in Middle Earth a practice of observing the movements of the planets and stars to predict events on a personal level. But odd happenings in the heavens may be taken to predict general events and be seen as signs of hope (Gil-Estel) or war (bright red star).

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

A "star" that changes in brightness can only be a planet, and the red color would suggest that it is Mars. That would be my assumption at any rate. Yes, it evokes the Eye, but since Middle-earth's stars are otherwise like ours (with the exception of the mythological elements like Eärendil; our "morning star" is normally the planet Venus), the most logical assumption would be that the light's source is from the same stars and planets.

Originally Posted by Morwen

My thinking was that the red "star" is Mars, hence my link between its bright appearance and impending war. If the HP centaurs hade been present in Rivendell at the time they might have told Frodo "Mars is bright tonight".

Yup, but the question stands like this: can we afford to make such bold assumptions? That was the original question. Frodo simply saw a star and he did not like it, point. I am also inclined to believe it was Mars, but that's another matter. But nothing implies that seeing a red star was taken by the Middle-Eartheans as a sign of war, like the HP centaurs do. The question is not whether centaurs would say that to Frodo, but whether Elves would say that to Frodo.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's true. But what I wanted to say was that it had nothing to do with astrology. It was a message from the Valar, and it did not have anything to do with astrology like that some astrologues in M-E would sit down and say "Eärendil rises in the west and Jupiter is in opposition so that means Morgoth will be overthrown". The question posed was about astrology (and astronomy) and this is not astrology in the way the word is understood here - this was reaction to a special event that happened only once.




Yup, but the question stands like this: can we afford to make such bold assumptions? That was the original question. Frodo simply saw a star and he did not like it, point. I am also inclined to believe it was Mars, but that's another matter. But nothing implies that seeing a red star was taken by the Middle-Eartheans as a sign of war, like the HP centaurs do. The question is not whether centaurs would say that to Frodo, but whether Elves would say that to Frodo.

I wasn't trying to suggest that any of the things I mentioned were astrology in the sense that you seem to be using.
Short point - From what I have read (and subject to correction) there doesn't seem to be clear evidence of astrology in Middle earth.