Astronomy and astrology in Middle-Earth?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

I'm not suggesting that the appearance of Gil-Estel was "normal" merely that it was thought significant (as it was).

That's true. But what I wanted to say was that it had nothing to do with astrology. It was a message from the Valar, and it did not have anything to do with astrology like that some astrologues in M-E would sit down and say "Eärendil rises in the west and Jupiter is in opposition so that means Morgoth will be overthrown". The question posed was about astrology (and astronomy) and this is not astrology in the way the word is understood here - this was reaction to a special event that happened only once.

I agree that the comparison of the star to an eye is meant to evoke the image of Sauron's Eye. However, Frodo is actually supposed to be observing a bright red star, one that grows ever brighter and such a symbol has been used to signify times of turmoil. There may not be in Middle Earth a practice of observing the movements of the planets and stars to predict events on a personal level. But odd happenings in the heavens may be taken to predict general events and be seen as signs of hope (Gil-Estel) or war (bright red star).

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

A "star" that changes in brightness can only be a planet, and the red color would suggest that it is Mars. That would be my assumption at any rate. Yes, it evokes the Eye, but since Middle-earth's stars are otherwise like ours (with the exception of the mythological elements like Eärendil; our "morning star" is normally the planet Venus), the most logical assumption would be that the light's source is from the same stars and planets.

Originally Posted by Morwen

My thinking was that the red "star" is Mars, hence my link between its bright appearance and impending war. If the HP centaurs hade been present in Rivendell at the time they might have told Frodo "Mars is bright tonight".

Yup, but the question stands like this: can we afford to make such bold assumptions? That was the original question. Frodo simply saw a star and he did not like it, point. I am also inclined to believe it was Mars, but that's another matter. But nothing implies that seeing a red star was taken by the Middle-Eartheans as a sign of war, like the HP centaurs do. The question is not whether centaurs would say that to Frodo, but whether Elves would say that to Frodo.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's true. But what I wanted to say was that it had nothing to do with astrology. It was a message from the Valar, and it did not have anything to do with astrology like that some astrologues in M-E would sit down and say "Eärendil rises in the west and Jupiter is in opposition so that means Morgoth will be overthrown". The question posed was about astrology (and astronomy) and this is not astrology in the way the word is understood here - this was reaction to a special event that happened only once.




Yup, but the question stands like this: can we afford to make such bold assumptions? That was the original question. Frodo simply saw a star and he did not like it, point. I am also inclined to believe it was Mars, but that's another matter. But nothing implies that seeing a red star was taken by the Middle-Eartheans as a sign of war, like the HP centaurs do. The question is not whether centaurs would say that to Frodo, but whether Elves would say that to Frodo.

I wasn't trying to suggest that any of the things I mentioned were astrology in the sense that you seem to be using.
Short point - From what I have read (and subject to correction) there doesn't seem to be clear evidence of astrology in Middle earth.

[Gwathagor]

Astrology and astronomy aren't SO different...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

I wasn't trying to suggest that any of the things I mentioned were astrology in the sense that you seem to be using.
Short point - From what I have read (and subject to correction) there doesn't seem to be clear evidence of astrology in Middle earth.

Oh yeah, then - okay. Only since the point was astrology before, I thought you had that in mind (also with all the centaurs things). All right then.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Astrology and astronomy aren't SO different...

Now probably quite a lot of astronomers - and astrologues maybe as well - would look at you as on a poor uninformed person (in the better case) if you said such a thing in their sight. The origins of both lie in the ancient times and in the same roots, and they were both considered "sciencies" (or so we would say now) at these times; this is also what explains the controversial name of astrology (with the ending -logy we are more used to real "sciencies" like biology and so on, so in fact astronomy should be rather named astrology; yet, in these past times astronomy indeed concerned herself more with naming, catalogizing, observing stellar objects while astrology made "scientifical" conclusions based on the movements of the skies). Yet, and that remains till today, astrology specializes itself on horoscopes and such things, while astronomy is all that has something to do with exploring the space, catalogizing the stars and other object, explaining their movements, "mapping" them - how distant they are, how luminous they are, what is the prognosis of the lifespan of the stars etc. Astrology, as far as I know, does not concern itself with how distant this and this star is or what the surface of this and this planet is like, but only where this planet was when you were born and similar things.

[The Might]

Aren't we far too off topic here?

The question was if they exist in M-e not what they are and I think we have our answer.
Unless, someone has proof that they did make predictions by looking at the stars.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

The question was if they exist in M-e not what they are and I think we have our answer.
Unless, someone has proof that they did make predictions by looking at the stars.

And that is what I am waiting for - if we can find any proof (or I hoped that we could find at least "no" from the Prof in the Letters or something). Or something closer about astronomy. I wouldn't have started the thread in the first place, because I had my own opinion about the matter, yet I wanted to learn if there is anything else.

[Gwathagor]

Well...I think my CRAZY idea that astrology and astronomy are secretly the same thing is relevant to the question, because if I am right, then our question is wrong and we are setting up a false dichotomy.

If we are understanding astrology to mean newspaper horoscopes and petty fortune-telling, then I agree, it's nothing like astronomy. And yet, both things are produced from the same impulse, and have essentially the same purpose. This is more obvious if you are operating in a classical or medieval cosmology (which is the worldview within which Middle-earth exists). Until the rise of modernity, astrology was NOT horoscopes and crystal balls. It was based on the sensible notion that God's sovereign will and reason were reflected in his creation. By observing the movements of the heavenly bodies, a careful, scientifically-minded astrologer could attain a superior knowledge of the way the universe works, and what's going on in it. This is science. Astronomers, until the modern era, WERE astrologers: Ptolemy, the Magi, Pythagoras, Galileo (seriously); and our "astronomy vs. astrology" question is indicative of the same materialism and rationalism that likes to make Galileo a martyr for science who was locked up by the superstitious Church for refusing to compromise his professional, scientific integrity.

So, my point is that in Middle-earth (being a land firmly grounded in a medieval worldview) wise men who studied the stars could be safely called either astrologers or astronomers with equal accuracy.

I apologize, I think I may have just ranted.