The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-07-2008, 05:17 PM   #1
Eönwë
Flame Imperishable
 
Eönwë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
It is quite a strange idea, because there are aa fe loose threads left in LOTR, such as "What happened to the Ents?"(and the Entwives too for that matter). "What happened to the true Aulean dwarfs?" and so on. But he leaves personal things unsaid, for example about Legolas and Gimli, and where their adventures led them. Most of the personal stories are left where they are at the end of the story, with just a hint o a happy/bad ending. But we don't ever find out much about Radagasst te brown, and I don't think even Tolkien knew what happened to the Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando).
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
Eönwë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 12:26 PM   #2
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eönwë View Post
It is quite a strange idea, because there are aa fe loose threads left in LOTR, such as "What happened to the Ents?"(and the Entwives too for that matter). "What happened to the true Aulean dwarfs?" and so on. But he leaves personal things unsaid, for example about Legolas and Gimli, and where their adventures led them. Most of the personal stories are left where they are at the end of the story, with just a hint o a happy/bad ending. But we don't ever find out much about Radagasst te brown, and I don't think even Tolkien knew what happened to the Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando).
He definitely said he did not know (see Unfinished Tales, he only says he "is afraid they failed"). Concerning Radagast, well, he was not that much of an important character, and since he was in his retreat among the wild animals even during the times of the War of the Ring and all the epic stuff and the only thing that ever drove him out of there (as far as we know) was a vocation from Saruman connected with the threat of the Nine, one should not be even surprised that we don't know more about what happened to him later: he, presumably, remained where he was all the time.
And concerning Gimli and Legolas, we are told quite enough about them in the Appendices, about their journeys together and Gimli's work with the Dwarves in the Glittering Caves, and in the end, they both left, Legolas built a ship and they presumably both reached Eressëa.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 01:31 PM   #3
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Answered by Tolkien in the UT:

Quote:
Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.
Just as Sauron or the WK he had been reduced to impotence and was no longer capable of assuming physical form. However, should the Dagor Dagorath be true I am sure he would have repented and joined the good side, then again this is only pure speculation on my part.

As for all the other questions that are left more or less unanswered... don't you need some mysteries after all?

And as the Professor himself said in letter #144:

Quote:
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 02:44 PM   #4
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might View Post
Answered by Tolkien in the UT:
Quote:
Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.
Oh yeah, but I guess the question would be "so where it was whithersoever it was doomed to go?" If it means "becomings pure spirit with no power, but wandering still around", like Sauron, that would make sense - yet what does being dissolved by the wind mean? I am aware that the mist that was visible was not the very essence of Saruman, only a phenomenon, visible to the hobbits around, but one keeps thinking about the question "and what if it really completely dissolved him in the way that he really was no more?" (In the meaning, because we know nothing can just disappear, even by the laws of physics, that he would be "blown" into the Void or something.) On the other hand, during the destruction of Mordor we see the big shadowy figure of Sauron disappear in a similar way (the scene is almost the same, only Sauron's departure is "bigger", as he still was on the top of his power at the time he is destroyed), so one can conclude that whatever happened to Sauron also happened to Saruman.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might View Post
Just as Sauron or the WK he had been reduced to impotence and was no longer capable of assuming physical form. However, should the Dagor Dagorath be true I am sure he would have repented and joined the good side, then again this is only pure speculation on my part.
*eyes shine* But actually, is there anything that supports this idea of yours? I mean, is it said anywhere who would take which side, or at least some general example from which you could judge this as probable?
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 04:47 PM   #5
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Legate, you do realise the answer is in the quote.
Do the words "pure speculation on my part" ring a bell?
No, I have no idea really.
But, if as he died he did look towards the West, as he was supposed to return to Mandos but this was denied.
I have no clue if in the many ages to come he would hate the Valar for kicking him out or realise his mistake but I hope that he made the good decision like Ar-Pharazon.

As for where his spirit went as far as I am aware this is the only quote from all the works that deals with this and so is the only source of infromation.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2008, 04:16 PM   #6
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might View Post
Legate, you do realise the answer is in the quote.
Do the words "pure speculation on my part" ring a bell?
No, I have no idea really.
Yes, I got that, but by the formulation I hoped that you have some original, though vague hint that it might have been so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might View Post
I have no clue if in the many ages to come he would hate the Valar for kicking him out or realise his mistake but I hope that he made the good decision like Ar-Pharazon.
Hey wait, so that old idio... ahem, that old king repented? Now that's indeed silly. In that case Saruman must have as well. I would certainly like him there more than that madman. Just where have I heard that: "To the very same Heaven, as me, the old venerable holy father Saruman? No way!!!"
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2008, 04:11 PM   #7
Groin Redbeard
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Groin Redbeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,635
Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Groin Redbeard is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.
Interesting, thanks for clearing that up Might.
__________________
I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men!
~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Groin Redbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:30 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.