What of Curumo?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

A little late in the discussion, but new to the board... (and call me Ibrin or Ibri, it's easier)

I don't have my books on hand to go looking for the reference at the moment, but Tolkien did say that Alatar and Pallando, in their falling, may have been the source for persistent "black magic" cults that persist "even to this day" (whatever "this day" might be). I believe he also speculates somewhere that Sauron might have gotten to them before they completed their task of trying to bolster the resistance against him in the East.

My feeling about Saruman's spirit is that he may have wound up in a sort of Limbo -- not the doom of the Void, nor the reward of the Timeless Halls, or even Aman. For him, he may be caught in a personal Purgatory (all rather in keeping with Tolkien's Catholic beliefs) -- not unlike the Wandering Spirits of Dickens' "A Christmas Carol." He did not do what he was supposed to do in that life, and now is condemned to wander among those he could have helped, a witness to all he is now powerless to share or aid. Just my thoughts, of course.

[Gordis]

Quite interesting.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

He did not do what he was supposed to do in that life, and now is condemned to wander among those he could have helped, a witness to all he is now powerless to share or aid. Just my thoughts, of course.

Yes, I also have always thought of it this way: both Sauron and Saruman wandering "naked"- bodiless and powerless through Middle-Earth, unable to assume a form again.
But is contradicts the UT quote given by The Might:
"and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back. "

So, where did the Spirit of Saruman go?

And more general question: where do spirits of disembodied Maiar go? Are they summoned by Mandos like Eru's children or not?
What about Melian for instance?

But I am sure it was not the fate of the nazgul. They were born Men, not Elves or Maiar, and nobody but Eru could have changed their ultimate fate.
Yes, when "killed" by Merry and Eowyn the WK was "reduced to impotence" , that means that his spirit didn't leave for the Halls of Mandos straight away. But it surely did after the Ring was destroyed. It was not in Sauron's power to deny the Nazgul the Gift of Eru after death, though through the Rings their lives were unnaturally stretched and their spirits bound to the Rings.
With the One destroyed and the Nine Rings shorn of their power, there was nothing to keep the nazgul bound to Middle-Earth. They finally died like all Men die and went to Mandos and beyond.

As for Dagor Dagorath - why, interesting idea. Turin and Earendil and the Witch-King in one team.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Contradictions. Oh, yes, this is the downside of having published collections of author's notes, differing versions, ideas, etc. You wind up with so much information, inevitably, some of it is going to contradict -- especially when you have the author admittedly attempting to try to make what he has already written fit into a specific belief system that can't quite manage to hold all the extant details. What happens to a "dead" Maia? (I believe Tolkien did say that Melian shed her physical form and returned to Lorien, so we at least know what happened to her.) Not just Curumo and Sauron, but others like the Balrogs and other servants of Melkor. Tolkien never really says. I know that he tried to come up with some sort of explanation for what happened to the spirits of dead orcs, but never managed to come up with one that he could reconcile both what he believed as a Catholic and what he wanted the orcs to be.

One also has to consider that when we read these stories, we are reading things written from the point of view of a Hobbit or an Elf. They do not know the details of what happens to a fallen Maia, and thus can only speculate. In the case of the Istari, however, we do have one indication of who decides their fate when their real physical bodies died. Upon the death of his body, Gandalf/Olorin went "outside of time and thought," which Tolkien says in one of his letters meant that he left the Circles of the World; his fate was decided by Eru. Eru may have other fates in store for the other fallen Maiar. Since Curumo's body died within the physical world, and the physical world is so much more than just Middle-earth, he may be doomed to a wandering existence that will take him far away from it. I believe it was said that Sauron had so diminished, he would never be able to reembody, and would be nothing more than a shadow of fear and evil in the world. Boy, I think I need to go back and brush up on some of my reading!

[Gordis]

I agree with you, Ibri.
Gandal'f case might however have been an exception - maybe he was summoned to give an account of his mission and agreed to it. Take Sauron at the Downfall. Eru was "very much present" at the moment, but still Sauron was able to return in spirit form to ME unhindered. Though, maybe, it was the Ring that helped him. Yes, I think so.
But I somehow doubt that Melian has been summoned to Eru, or the Barlogs.

It looks like Saruman's spirit wished to return to Valinor as Melian's did, but he was refused admittance (that's how I read this West wind reference)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, Melian didn't die, or, perhaps more to the point, she wasn't killed. She surrendered the body she was in and returned to Valinor, and thus exercised free will in the matter. Tolkien does point out that the bodies of the Istari were "real and not feigned"; I believe he states somewhere amid all his writings that though they were not subject to death by old age, they were truly corporeal and not fanar. This particular aspect was apparently imposed on them by the nature of their mission and how the Valar wanted it carried out, the flesh diminishing their power and memories at the same time it gave them a clearer understanding of what it meant to live as truly and naturally incarnate beings.

I myself have long wondered about where these "real" bodies came from. We know that when one of the Ainur attaches his or herself to their fana for too long, it becomes "real" in the sense that they can no longer discard as they would clothing (which Tolkien tells us is the usual case for an Ainu shedding his fana). But is the making of a "real" body for themselves within the power of the Ainur in Ea? One would think so, from Melian's case (since one would presume a real body was necessary in order for her to have a child with Thingol), but Tolkien never actually says where her body came from, and why she was able to leave it without a terrible cost to herself. Then again, maybe there was a terrible cost to herself, which is why she has never sung again. We just don't know. Since we know of no other Elf/Ainu couples, perhaps Eru did have a hand in it.

At any rate, Eru clearly doesn't decide the fate of beings like the Balrogs, but perhaps only He knows what becomes of them after they have suffered a bodily death from which they finally cannot return. It's an interesting matter to ponder.

[The Might]

A nice idea indeed with purgatory, could be a possibility.

[Gwathagor]

I'm pretty sure that Radagast hangs around for a couple millenia. He later assists a young Briton named Arthur in becoming High King of Britain, and is immortalized in medieval legend and romance as the wizard Merlin.