Astronomy and astrology in Middle-Earth?

[Gwathagor]

Crystal balls was hyperbole.

My argument hinges on that last sentence in my great, big, overblown post.

I don't have any evidence. I think that since Middle-earth is written from a worldview which is largely medieval, that it is safe to assume that the inhabitants believed certain things about the heavens, but I can't actually PROVE it...yet. Still working on that...maybe I'll get around to it.

[The Might]

Well, it is similar, but it is not truly medieval, it is after all fantasy.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, and the relation of the inhabitants of the world towards the Powers/Eru was quite different from the one the ancient/medieval people had to their gods/God, especially concerning the Elves. For the Elves, unless they were specifically instructed by Varda that there is something to discover in the stars, and largely in the world that had close to the West/Elves/Edain, the "learned" world (meaning the world that was getting their knowledge, although passed over several receptors, from the Valar), they would most probably, in my opinion, not perform astrology. Maybe the primitive Men or later the more "barbaric" nations would seek their own way to the Powers and the knowledge of the world through other means, like for example trying to read the information about the world in stars. Since we are not told that Eru or Valar ciphered anything in the stars (or I was hoping to get a knowledge about this through this thread, if Tolkien wrote anywhere that they did, though personally I doubt it), I presume it was not so and thus, astrology would have been just a superstition and therefore, even if some of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth performed it, the Valar would tell the Eldar and the Eldar would tell the Edain and the Edain would pass the knowledge among the other Men, that astrology has no sense in Middle-Earth.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, and the relation of the inhabitants of the world towards the Powers/Eru was quite different from the one the ancient/medieval people had to their gods/God, especially concerning the Elves.

If I was in a mood to have my mind changed, it would be by this bit here. Good argument.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

If I was in a mood to have my mind changed, it would be by this bit here. Good argument.

Thank you And that argument is what all my other thoughts presented in this thread are based on, so if you read them in light of this, you will see what I truly meant.

[The Might]

Well I see we have reached quite a conclusion, so I'll add something I just thought of and that although is not truly this thread's topic is also close to it.

Now, we know that Aragorn went

even into the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange.

Clearly it seems that Arda also had two totally distinct hemispheres with different stars on the sky.
The thing in Tolkien's works is that all is quite North-centred and pretty much nothing is said about the South.

In the North stars are used to signal something, for example the Valacirca to be a warning for Melkor and his followers.

My question is simple...was there a reason for stars with a meaning in the South and if so is there any mention of this?

[Macalaure]

Let me throw in two quotes.

They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars.
~The Council of Elrond

Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars.
~The Window on the West

I think these two quotes point towards the existence of (some kind of) astrology.

So, Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. But is there any way in which Saruman would benefit from astronomy? I mean, his main plan for most of his time in Middle-earth was learning about the Ring and then finding it - how could astronomy help him with that? Saruman was a learned man with a variety of scholar interests, of course, but I find it unlikely that he merely watched the stars for leisure.
The Gondorians, then, didn't only watch the stars, but asked questions of them. Especially being named right after "compounding strong elixirs", I don't think Tolkien had a "proper science" in mind when he wrote it.

The way I read both of these, the Gondorians and Saruman were not trying to learn about the stars, but from them, which would point towards some form of astrology. And if there is astrology in these places, then I don't see why the other occurrences of people watching the stars should point exclusively to astronomy.

It is, however, interesting to note that in these more obvious quotes it is people of a doubtful character who practice astrology. It is also interesting to observe that in all occurrences (as far as I'm aware) of "watching the stars" etc. Tolkien does not say what people learned from them, so in case that we do have astrology here, he carefully leaves it open whether it gives valid answers or is a mere superstition.