Werewolf XLII: The meaning of life forever

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Well. Day 1 and I'm already attracting suspicion. Welcome back, Zali. :P

Anyway.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Azaelia because she doesn't really say anything. Agrees with someone, discusses (IMO) irrelevant matters such as quiet/loud wolves, and doesn't express any suspicion.

I was just joining in the conversation at hand, which happened to be, at least in part, about quiet/loud wolves. I was also worried by the fact that Roa had said that she was going to be using today a lot and that people who weren't particularly active today were going to be more likely to get her vote on trial days, since I am generally a quiet player. And I'm a bit rusty at this. *sigh*

I haven't expressed any suspicion because it's just the first day. I have already said that while I'm not throwing today away completely, I do not want to base any opinions on today alone. It must be a personal style thing. I'm not a fan of the finger-pointing that happens on Day 1s. I'm actually not a fan of Day 1s in general. I don't think we have enough from anyone yet to form a solid opinion.

Anyway, this is possibly my last post of the day, since I have class soon.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Azaelia of Willowbottom

I haven't expressed any suspicion because it's just the first day. I have already said that while I'm not throwing today away completely, I do not want to base any opinions on today alone.

I don't think anyone is saying one should lock one's opinions toDay! But if people do not talk there is nothing to gain from this Day and it has been a useless banter and speculation of a few.

Let me illuminate this with an example.

Let's say I'm thrown in the ring with say Naria and Gil-Galad (and let's assume for the sake of the argument that they will not show up before the trials). Now if they keep up with their "hunker down & lay low" tactics how am I supposed to decide which one to vote? Another one of them will be a wolf so I'd need to get it right but how? Throwing a dice?

Let's take another example.

If I'm to be thrown on the arena with Lommy and Roa I'll have lots to read and think - and I'm pretty sure they will give me further food for thought that Day as well. So I may base my vote on something instead of pure guesswork.

And even if the wolves are on their own toDay it is right what Legate noted: they may toDay accidentally vote or make open suspicions over their mates and that might be a burden so it's suitable for the wolves to be lenient and nice to everyone. And what's more important, they should not voice any suspicions they actually have - for surely they are on the look out for their mates now - just not to spoil their game later. So look carefully at those being nice and smooth but also to fabricated suspicions eg. those that can be easily reverted as pure Day1 testing or banter.

I'll try to follow my own advice soon and give you my views on people.

[Valier]

Wow...I went to bed thinking I would have page upon page to read today, but to no avail. There seems to be only about 10 new posts. This quietness is disheartening, I should be around till almost the end today, so lets hope some more people turn up. I'm off to read, and hopefully form some opinions no matter how weak they may be.

[Valier]

I was going to make a list, but what I was going to say has already been said by a few people. My suspicions today include

Zali- I find it funny, that she finds it odd that she has suspicion already. I pretty much figured everyone would have some suspicion today. Says she does not want to suspect anyone today....huh did I get that right?

Shasta- Says very little, is going to come back with more substance....I find that a little hard to do today...could be a wolf, trying to be helpful.

Aganzir- not sure I like that already he thinks Roa an Ordo...unwise Roa is very cunning and it is not good to underestimate her so early on.


I know these reasons are weak, but something about these three just doesn't sit right. going by their words and actions today only. I will be watching Nogrod, Lommy, Legate and Roa in the days to come though. They are for me the ones to keep an eye on, they have fooled me before and I always find them hard to read. Don't get me wrong I will be watching everyone, but they warrant more watching from me as well as my suspects.

[Valier]

I think this is my first triple post ever....

People who still haven't posted

satansaloser2005
Alittlegreen
The Might
Kath
Naria
Gil-Galad
Rikae
Isabel

Do you think they all forgot about this day? makes you wonder...

[Rikae]

I'm here - I've just been reading through the thread to catch up on things before posting.
An unusual aspect of this game that no one has yet mentioned is the fact that most of this group has something to hide. Usual methods wolf-spotting like searching for nervous defensiveness & extreme efforts for one's own survival could spell disaster in the event that they are adopted by the ordos on the trial days, required as they are to choose between a gifted and a wolf. Though gifteds can reveal, under pressure, at the last minute normally, buying themselves a day or two, that would be useless on a trial day. We will really have to fine-tune our tracking methods to distinguish between good and evil.

Even though I know more than a third of this crowd is up to no good, only one person clearly rings alarm bells for me at this point - Azaelia. She is too agreeable, too careful, and in response to suspicion, seems too worried by it. I'm going to make a mental note to watch her closely from this point onwards.
There is also something that makes me uneasy about Valier, but then again, there always is. As someone said last time around, she has a furry soul.

Oh, and one more thing, Nogrod: Macalaure & I are, of course, lovers, even though he isn't playing, and are going to plot against you and get you lynched. Mwahahaha!

[Nogrod]

I would agree with Lommy that Roa is acting in a strangely consiliatory way. And to top that it's interesting that while she discusses the importance of this Day she does little else but talks about general issues. Well, I've myself done pretty much the same this far so maybe I can't blame her on that. On the other hand I do agree with most if not all of what she says about the general issues and that adds to my feel good -factor with her.

In my view - at this point - I'd say that I'm not at all relaxed with her but she speaks sense as always, also when she's a baddie.

Legate is another person around here who has posted more and with whom I have some concerns. It seemed that he was under the very same and faulty impression as I was that those trios Volo posted on the discussion thread would be the actual trios. Looking at his first post from that point of view brings Mac's first post from the last game to my mind very vividly. There Mac was a wolf who didn't know who I am and tried to frame me from the beginning making outrageously fabricated zero-suspicions the whole content of his post. I realised he was a wolf from that. Funnily I was to be a lynched wolf of a competing team so nobody believed me in the beginning...

But there is something strikingly similar in Legate's post even if it's more subtile. Mainly I'm worried about the way he could be seen laying groundwork for his possible vote on me in the trial to come (which we both then thought we were facing each other in). Legate is a reasonable player and when he is playing for the good of the village he's the most considerate person who avoids suspicions without a cause. But for some reason he decided to open the trial game already there in his first post of Day0.0. Why would that be if not to secure his stance on the trial-Day? And why would he feel the need to secure that position? Well a wolf might need it if he were to try and win a trophy...

Yet again after that he has played most wisely and made a few good points. Also I like his way of playing because he actually posts and brings forwards new ideas.

I might consider voting Legate or Roa toDay on these grounds.

*Diplomacy check: fumble, red alert!*

But I do hope I will find better candidates because both of them would be real assets to us if they are innocents and fighting wars between us as innocents would only play to the hands of the wolves. If we had an actual lynch toDay I'd rather vote for someone not committed to the game though... the loudmouths tend to get caught as the game proggresses as the net of lies they have to weave breaks sooner or later.

*Diplomacy check: not good but getting an inch better*

We need to speak our minds here now and toDay even if it means voicing concerns about people we like to play with.

*Diplomacy check: lost the die*

(The end of copying Legate's style)

~*~

Lommy I think has been helpful and straightforward and she also has the "right opinions".

My only problem with that is that if someone can totally fool me it's Lommy. So I'm torn between feeling good about her and thinking whether I should suspect her even more because of this good feeling...

I'll take a break and come back with something to say about those people who have said less...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Looking at his first post from that point of view brings Mac's first post from the last game to my mind very vividly. There Mac was a wolf who didn't know who I am and tried to frame me from the beginning making outrageously fabricated zero-suspicions the whole content of his post. I realised he was a wolf from that. Funnily I was to be a lynched wolf of a competing team so nobody believed me in the beginning...

I have to say, in defense of Mac - he actually found you wolfish. He was certain you were evil, even though I kept telling him he didn't have any good evidence.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

He was certain you were evil, even though I kept telling him he didn't have any good evidence.

The power of the guts?

[Rikae]

I just wanted to mention one more thing before getting on with boring RL matters – it seems as though the majority here are of the opinion that voting now will give useful evidence later on, but this notion strikes me as nonsensical and useless. Votes haven't ever been an accurate indicator of people's actual suspicions, I'm afraid – it is only the role of the lynched person being revealed which makes them significant. Voting now only offers the wolves an easy way to appear innocent by "voting" those who genuinely look evil to them without risk of actually getting anyone evil lynched.
It is far more helpful to simply list suspicions - and the reasons behind them - at this point.

EDIT: X'd with Green, Legate & Might

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Rikae, read what I replied to Brinniel in the post above. It is not about who is "lynched" today, but for whom everyone votes. Now that we don't lynch anyone, everyone can vote really whom they genuinely think the most suspicious. And the wolves, of course, might do whatever they want, and end up the way I illustrated in my post above.

EDIT: x-ed with Nogrod

[Nogrod]

I'm not perfectly happy with Groin Redbeard's open agreement with both me and Lommy. Also his easy jump on Brinn looks a bit suspicious. But then again I'd be more than ready to grant him the benefit of doubt as this is his first game if I have it right.

I may disagree with Brinn about the reasonableness of the discussion toDay but I still find her more innocentish than wolvish. A wolf would more likely just quietly go with the silent flow and not try to openly prove how insignificant the Day0.0 is if you get what I mean. With Brinn I'm most uneasy with this sentence:

Originally Posted by Brinn

Come Day 1, anything that happened toDay will have no real significance; we'll all be examining what occurred during Days 0.1-0.6.

But don't you see Brinn that what happens during Days 0.1-0.7 are heavily influenced by what happens toDay? The more we speak toDay, the more openly we come forwards the more we can learn from this Day. Downplaying this Day only helps the wolves. I can argue that with length later but now I think I have more pressing things at hand.

The Ka is a hard one to me. There is a general air of innocence in there but maybe it's just that which nags me. The thing one could point at is that she seems to play like any decent werewolf: writing a lot (well that's relative but in this game she's one of the top posters anyway) without actually saying anything: so looking like being a contributing member of the village but at the same time hunkering down and laying low.

McCaber is another one I find it hard to read. His first post is not too bad (or too good either) but his second kind of makes me a bit worried - even if I know myself that my reasons to worry about it maybe pretty superficial. But look at this one more time

Originally Posted by McCaber

Just because I don't feel a need to say everything that crosses my mind doesn't mean I'm a wolf.

But the point of there being a game in the first place requires people to speak and not parasitically to stand by and use other people's speeches to one's gain. I'd paraphrase his words a new with: Just because I don't talk much doesn't mean I'm an innocent. But still I'd count him among the possible innocents rather than the baddies. That's a gut thing once again.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Usual methods wolf-spotting like searching for nervous defensiveness & extreme efforts for one's own survival could spell disaster in the event that they are adopted by the ordos on the trial days, required as they are to choose between a gifted and a wolf.
...
We will really have to fine-tune our tracking methods to distinguish between good and evil.

Good point Rikae. Something we should all consider.

Oh, and one more thing, Nogrod: Macalaure & I are, of course, lovers, even though he isn't playing, and are going to plot against you and get you lynched. Mwahahaha!

How come this didn't come as any surprise?

Anyway, welcome all you newly thrown-in gladiators!

I'll continue with my monologue on people in a moment... *needs a cigarette*

[Naria]

I'm here! I forgot that everyone was able to speak toDay

I have read through all of the posts and nothing has popped out at me. Everyone seems to be in agreement with someone else and, so far, chatter has just gone in circles.

Oh and Nog...it's not a tactic. It's a kind of ww disability for me. I have played for a couple of years now and still haven't figured out how to just talk and talk and talk. I will, however, in the next couple of hours try to "contribute" to this weird type of Day

[Brinniel]

Okay, I've read through the last posts pretty fast, because I'm short on time..

Originally Posted by Groin

The one who was eager to postpone yesterdays discussions. I think she just dosen't know who her fellow Were Wolves are, that's why she dosen't accuse anybody.

I never said I wasn't going to accuse anyone; I just haven't gotten there yet!

But as I said before, I can understand why the majority want us to make a vote...it is nice to see how people stand early on. I even partly agree that perhaps some sort of accusations should be made. But...I just don't think anything done toDay will be particularly useful in the long run. But hey like I said, please do prove me wrong. Maybe I'll even end up proving myself wrong. (Me, wrong? Those who know me from previous games know it's not unlikely).

I guess one of my concerns is that people will be so caught up with events that occurred toDay, they won't notice later and more important clues that are right in front of their faces. It's happened before...where people are so concerned with one thing they are blinded by another. Am I making any sense here? I get the feeling I may not be...

Okay, the only person who has really caught my eye is Lommy. Usually she seems very innocent to me, but right now I feel she's only giving the appearance of being helpful...which is how a manipulative and louder wolf will act. I'm just getting some bad vibes from her...

I would continue on, but I have to go now and I'm not sure I'll be back before deadline. But if I were to make a vote, I think she'd be the best option. (Do I really need to make the official vote mark since it's not for a lynch? )

So tell me, if I were to change my mind about her in the future, will you guys be calling that wolfish? I can see the reason why you would...but it'd just be a very typical move to accuse anyone (not just me) for that reason...but I think it would be a bad idea. The wolves could easily manipulate us to base our suspicions on Day 0, and like I said, all of us innocents would be blinded by everything else. I'm out of time...sorry. I'll be back if I can...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I guess one of my concerns is that people will be so caught up with events that occurred toDay, they won't notice later and more important clues that are right in front of their faces. It's happened before...where people are so concerned with one thing they are blinded by another.
...
The wolves could easily manipulate us to base our suspicions on Day 0, and like I said, all of us innocents would be blinded by everything else.

I'm not so concerned about this one. What I'm afraid of is that we will have very quiet and shallow trials where no one has anything to say. I mean if normal Day1's are hard and sometimes quite random - and where it's hard to come up with anything worth saying - so how would a Day1 with only three players be?

Why should anyone base their suspicions only on Day0.0 after the trials are over? That would be stupid. And remember, this Day might go bad for the wolves as you said yourself they don't know each other. They might be the ones who'd wish this Day never occured...

[Isabellkya]

Hiii. Just a short post to say that I am here. Luckily we had ice this morning, otherwise I wouldn't be here for a number of hours.

*catches up on happenings*

[Nogrod]

Shasta has been his usual self I'd say - even if his style of popping in to say hello and to vanish immediately after that kind of annoys me (sorry Shasta, nothing personal as it's just a question of a playing style). So nothing unusual there but after the Days go by he might prove a problem if he doesn't post more. Anyway I'd say innocentish this far.

Menel the pessimist is a questionmark to me as well. There is sense in his words even if I disagree with a lot in there. But then again he's an experienced player. Although I might say he looks less lynchable than he usually does... I don't know what to say of it.

The Might is even more an enigma. He clearly was not understanding the game-mechanics or the timelines but then his weird theory in his last post does confuse one even more... making one think he might be innocent in the end. Or a very bold wolf. So innocentish I'd say.


Many people to comment on and not too much time... Maybe I'll go for impressions after this as there might be some live-discussions here to take part in? Let's see.

[A Little Green]

Just a little (green) postie before I go and eat some (not little nor green) food.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I guess one of my concerns is that people will be so caught up with events that occurred toDay, they won't notice later and more important clues that are right in front of their faces. It's happened before...where people are so concerned with one thing they are blinded by another. Am I making any sense here? I get the feeling I may not be...

I think you most definitely are making sense, or else I don't grasp your meaning correctly. I have no new suspicions, I just wanted to say what I forgot in my last post and what I think Brinniel means with her statement here.

I find it troublesome (though possibly inevitable) that the one "lynched" and also those suspected today will be facing heavier suspicion in the trials, which in itself is not troublesome of course, but the point of the whole day 0. However, without hardly any basis at all, today's suspicions can be, and most likely are, quite random. Those suspected today might get a suspicious air in the trials just because they were voted, whatever the motives of the voters may be and however furry their posts really were. Now if this is making any sense then I must lift the little green hat for myself.

EDIT: x-ed with Nogrod and Isabellkya

[Thinlómien]

I'm back and I must say we should mark our votes, even as they don't count.

Originally Posted by Azaelia

I haven't expressed any suspicion because it's just the first day.

If this is not just misfortunate phrasing, it's a very suspicious statement. And I'm, truth be told, annoyed with her making no statements of suspicion at all during Day1. What if we all acted like that?

Originally Posted by Azaelia

I have already said that while I'm not throwing today away completely, I do not want to base any opinions on today alone. It must be a personal style thing. I'm not a fan of the finger-pointing that happens on Day 1s. I'm actually not a fan of Day 1s in general. I don't think we have enough from anyone yet to form a solid opinion.

What? Excuse me, but who actually is saying that any opinions should be based on toDay's posts alone? That would be utter folly. I really really don't understand Zali and I'm afraid her logic seems somewhat wolfy.

Originally Posted by Noggles

My only problem with that is that if someone can totally fool me it's Lommy.

Like in Gil's game?

Originally Posted by LittleGreenMan

Is it just my imagination or do I see a contradiction here? When reading the first paragraph of that quote (the thing after the red alert), my first thought was "oh dear, so it's this same old thing, let's vote for the good, fluent, experienced players we personally like to play with". The second statement made me feel slightly better (and slightly less annoyed ).

What? Do you really mean that people like Nogrod tend to vote smart & experienced ones he likes to play with? For it's the contrary.

Originally Posted by Green

Overall, I don't quite know what to think about Nogrod. He is taking a leader role, and I am not sure whether I should be alarmed by it or not.

I don't have any clear image of him yet either, but if you're alarmed with him trying to take the leadership, well, I can tell you that he always does that, regardless of his role.

Originally Posted by Noggie

I'm not perfectly happy with Groin Redbeard's open agreement with both me and Lommy. Also his easy jump on Brinn looks a bit suspicious. But then again I'd be more than ready to grant him the benefit of doubt as this is his first game if I have it right.

I'm not perfectly happy either - though not because it looks wolvish to me, but because if he is innocent (like I'd currently be inclined to believe), I fear he might be easily lead. Groin, don't take the opinions or advice of the more experinced without chewing it first - I did that in my first game and well, I'm very glad those two I almost blindly listened to were gifteds. But not every newbie has such luck.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I guess one of my concerns is that people will be so caught up with events that occurred toDay, they won't notice later and more important clues that are right in front of their faces. It's happened before...where people are so concerned with one thing they are blinded by another.

Yes, yes, but I fail to see how it applies to this game especially...

I'd like to repeat something I've said before. Today, more and especially less accurate suspicion is flying around and some wolves might be out there that have chosen as their tactic trying to manipulate us. So, whatever we do toDay, we must read and ponder everything said toDay very carefully and critically before our trials. And in the trials, we should definitely not focus only on those who have posted or whose actions have been discussed toDay.

EDIT: mass xed with everything after Green's latest post

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

But as I said before, I can understand why the majority want us to make a vote...it is nice to see how people stand early on. I even partly agree that perhaps some sort of accusations should be made. But...I just don't think anything done toDay will be particularly useful in the long run. But hey like I said, please do prove me wrong.

Well, as I said before, and some repeated that, the point of all people voting toDay is clear. The wolves don't know who the other wolves are. Let's say I'm a wolf and vote for the Might. Later, I find out that the Might is also a fellow wolf. I may of course continue my suspicion and slowly drop it (or at least weaken it), or even quickly drop it (which would cause immediate suspicion), or I may decide to keep the suspicion and eventually choose to sacrifice the Might in order to keep myself distanced from him. This method is not bulletproof, but with a good deal of luck it can bring valuable results. And if all of us don't vote, the possibility of evidence it offers cannot be even brought up. Or we can simply say (and the wolves who vote will surely agree) that all who did not vote on Day 1 should be lynched because only a wolf sees advantage in not voting on Day 1. Therefore, I say we all should vote toDay, or: if you are an innocent, vote, because otherwise it may happen that all wolves vote and then they say: "Ha, you, you did not vote, let's lynch you!" And it's only your bad decision that lead you to this bad situation.

Though I disagree with Brinn on her pessimistic view, from her post #44 I am inclined to judge her as innocentish.

Originally Posted by Lommy

But, in order to add some so called "Lommy-flipflopping", I must say I think I always suspect her, whether she's innocent or guilty... (last time, mind you, she was actually guilty)

That was not necessary to add. I have a vague idea where to put Lommy, but comments like this make me a little more aware.

Rikae brings a good point about the Gifteds, I thought this thing was not necessary to be said aloud, but maybe it's better if people who did not realise it in the first place can think about it as well.

Aganzir looks normal this far. What does that mean? Nothing, as one Cobbler (one of many) recently said, she is capable of being a very unsuspicious wolf. Nevertheless, this far okay.

I don't get what everyone has with Azalia, maybe I have not played with her to know her, but her playing style does not raise any alarms. But, thinking of it, yes, how should I notice any difference in her behavior when I never met her before.

Little Green also looks ok, not like when she was playing the last time and were a wolf

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm not perfectly happy with Groin Redbeard's open agreement with both me and Lommy.

Yup, I noticed something similar. Groin, though he is just finding his way in the arena, seems too quick to side with some strong players - a thing a newbie wolf (the more with no prior discussion and advices from his older mates!) could do.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog, Isa and LG

[The Might]

Aha, just found a post in the Admin thread I somehow missed and so now I know how it works.

So... it is really not important who you vote toDay right?
While I can on hand see how a vote could help us perhaps find a culprit I don't think it's the same a vote where someone will be lynched as there is nothing at stake.
So... I can't really say who is suspicious since it is easy for wolves to defend themselves as they don't have to try and defend any others from their pack.

Now, my own thoughts to this loud/quiet thing.
I must admit that in my first WWs I did always consider quiets more suspicious and louds rather helpful then furry and I still stick to this, but this doesn't really matter that much to me anymore.

I know myself there can be many reasons why a player is simply not able to say much on the first Day and so I'm not going to concentrate too much on it all.

Btw, you know what just came to my mind?
After all the twists and turns last WW I think we might be seeing something similar here as well.
I mean, after all the wolves don't do anything, nor do the gifteds.
My humble theory is that we were all made innocents (that somehow makes it much harder to see any wolvishness in one's playing style) and that the roles really will only be PMed later before the first Day begins.
Don't know if Volo is capable of such evil deeds , but it seems to be an interesting idea...