Lack of respect displayed by Gimli

[alatar]

Sorry to all for my less than informative and evidential posts last eve.

Anyway, now I do have some 'evidence' as to why I think that Gimli shouldn't have stood on the Tomb of Balin. I'll disregard the whole 'respect' thing as I don't know that much about movie Dwarven culture. Sure, Gimli spends a lot of time kneeling before the tomb, but then maybe all bets are off once the Dwarf's blood (if they have blood, which is another assumption) gets hot.

I'll be referring to the attached images. In 'Gimli,' we see the Dwarf atop the tomb. Aragorn and Legolas - archers - are in front, and Boromir stands out there as well with sword and shield. Gandalf and the hobbits stand off to the other side. Gimli2 shows this from the front - what the orcs will see when they enter the Chamber of Mazarbul. Gimli3 shows Gimli after the affray has gone on for a few minutes. The Dwarf is still atop the tomb. Aragorn has switched from bow to sword, and at this time everyone is engaged. Gimli has taken one or possibly two hacks at orcs, and now is dodging the troll's attack.

Okay, so for me, I would say that this 'come and get some' Dwarf would have been better positioned for battle directly in front of the tomb. You'll notice if you watch the scene that his 'count,' which becomes more important later, is slightly - if at all - above the individual hobbits. He could have been right behind Aragorn and Legolas, so that when they drop their bows he could add to the ground attack. But...

And now for the Seat of Denethor. In Gimli4, we can see the Dwarf happily planted on the black throne. Please look closely at his legs and his head in relationship to the throne. In Gimli5, we see that the Dwarf is so comfortable that he's lit up his pipe - hammer and tongs!

Now I will conjecture that all of this fuss about disrespect for the Seat of Denethor is for not. Why? Again, look at Gimli4. If that's a human-sized throne then I'll be a winged polar Balrog. So, my conclusion? The Army of the Dead stole the real throne and replaced it with the one we see. You also will note that the King's throne also is missing.

No wonder they were in a hurry to leave on the Pellenor Fields - had to get out of town before Aragorn discovered their prank. Aragorn cares not as he sees the obvious fakery. How else can you explain it?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

And now for the Seat of Denethor. In Gimli4, we can see the Dwarf happily planted on the black throne. Please look closely at his legs and his head in relationship to the throne. In Gimli5, we see that the Dwarf is so comfortable that he's lit up his pipe - hammer and tongs!

Now I will conjecture that all of this fuss about disrespect for the Seat of Denethor is for not. Why? Again, look at Gimli4. If that's a human-sized throne then I'll be a winged polar Balrog. So, my conclusion? The Army of the Dead stole the real throne and replaced it with the one we see. You also will note that the King's throne also is missing.

No wonder they were in a hurry to leave on the Pellenor Fields - had to get out of town before Aragorn discovered their prank. Aragorn cares not as he sees the obvious fakery. How else can you explain it?

Oh great Mod alatar, on whose altar... ...
You have gone back to review the flick, which I didn't have time for. Does Gimli in the movie simply sit on the Ruling Stewards' black stone chair and not on the Vacant Throne? So that PJ completely omitted Tolkien's little bit of monarchial symbolism?

Do Kiwis not have Elizabeth as their titular head of state?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh great Mod alatar, on whose altar... ...

What!?! I'm not actually a mod; I just play one on TV...

You have gone back to review the flick, which I didn't have time for.

I considered it my penance.

Does Gimli in the movie simply sit on the Ruling Stewards' black stone chair and not on the Vacant Throne?

I'm not even sure that the 'vacant throne' was even there - truly vacant. Maybe Aragorn had it out being reupholstered perhaps?

So that PJ completely omitted Tolkien's little bit of monarchial symbolism?

All of that 'monarchy' stuff is lost on this 'Merican. Could you rephrase the question in regards to celebrity status (i.e. What would Brittany do?) ?

[Boromir88]

I'm not even sure that the 'vacant throne' was even there - truly vacant

I think if you look at Gimli4. up those steps at the top of the plateau(?) sits the white vacant throne of the king.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

All of that 'monarchy' stuff is lost on this 'Merican. Could you rephrase the question in regards to celebrity status (i.e. What would Brittany do?) ?

I think she would be gazing far too much into her Palantir. (But just because her name is Brittany, don't get confused with things Britainy.)

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961

Bethberry, it is not the actual Throne of the King that is under discussion. It is Gimli seen sitting in the vacant seat of the Steward.

Yes. Exactly. And the Steward's chair is not as deserving of respect as is the King's Throne.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Point exactly is if Jackson chose not to change the location of the Last Debate to the "throne room" this discussion would not be taking place,

You obviously are aware that the heir to the British throne, first in line, collects porcelain thrones as a hobby.

[Meriadoc1961]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think she would be gazing far too much into her Palantir. (But just because her name is Brittany, don't get confused with things Britainy.)



Yes. Exactly. And the Steward's chair is not as deserving of respect as is the King's Throne.

Bethberry,

Gandalf pointed out to Pippin that even the Steward of Gondor had a greater lineage than the King of Rohan, and was of higher and nobler blood. He was desended from a greater House of Men. And Aragorn, the exiled Lord of Gondor, paid respects to that subordinate king's wishes by removing Anduril from his side. Aragorn even bowed to Theoden. So the "Steward is less than the King" argument is not valid, particularly in this situation.

Denethor may have been only a Steward, but it came to him by birthright, just as a kingship does. He had all the power of the king during the king's absence, which in this case had been hundreds of years. He WAS the ruler of Gondor, and that in itself made him worthy of respect...and it was not shown to him or his office by Jackson having Gimli sit in his seat, kick back, and light up his pipe.

Merry

[Sauron the White]

Okay... lets approach this from a different tact. Forget for a minute about whose office was higher, who was in power and who was not, whose lineage was the more prestigious or lengthy, or what was the exact import of the various offices or thrones.

This was in the middle of war. The city had just been attacked by a couple of hundred thousand orcs, trolls, Nazgul and Grond thrown in for good measure. Large portions of it were destroyed and burned. Several sections of the city were probably largely uninhabitable. Lots of good people died in its defense. And then we realize that this is but a blip, a bump in the road. All means nothing if Frodo runs into serious opposition in Mordor and fails to complete his task.

With all this on the plate of Aragorn, Gandalf and group, is it logical to stand on manners and ceremony at this most crucial of times? During World War II lots of major buildings all over Europe were turned into war rooms where meetings were held and I would bet that the previous occupants would be shocked if they could see soldiers putting their feet up on that highly polished mahogany table or putting a cigar out on the family china. But it happened and it was not because anybody wanted to urinate upon or disrespect on the family or national crest or flag.

It was wartime plain and simple. That kind of urgency has a brutal and immediate way of cutting through all the social nicities of normal life and rendering them all pretty meaningless.

I am not British but I read and have seen newsreels where during the bombing of Britain during WWII, the Queen (who I guess is now the Queen Mother) would visit bombsites the next day, sometimes even the same day to meet with people and keep spirits up by purchasing some little item or food product in the nieghborhood to show the people that normal life should go on. I was not there. But I have to imagine that the conduct of those neighborhood people in meeting the Queen in a bombed out store may have been just a tad bit different than a formal presentation to the Queen at a formal event at the palace. At least that is what the old newsreels showed.

Same here with Gimli on the throne.
This so called lack of respect appears to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

One person's mountain is another person's molehill and vice versa. That's forum culture! Mountain or molehill is a matter of perspective - from which vantage point does one see it? You have every right to call it a molehill in your opinion, and another has just as much right to say it is a mountain for her or him. Neither should be disrespectful of the other person's right to see a matter as important or unimportant.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Okay... lets approach this from a different tact. Forget for a minute about whose office was higher, who was in power and who was not, whose lineage was the more prestigious or lengthy, or what was the exact import of the various offices or thrones.

This was in the middle of war. The city had just been attacked by a couple of hundred thousand orcs, trolls, Nazgul and Grond thrown in for good measure. Large portions of it were destroyed and burned. Several sections of the city were probably largely uninhabitable. Lots of good people died in its defense. And then we realize that this is but a blip, a bump in the road. All means nothing if Frodo runs into serious opposition in Mordor and fails to complete his task.

With all this on the plate of Aragorn, Gandalf and group, is it logical to stand on manners and ceremony at this most crucial of times? During World War II lots of major buildings all over Europe were turned into war rooms where meetings were held and I would bet that the previous occupants would be shocked if they could see soldiers putting their feet up on that highly polished mahogany table or putting a cigar out on the family china. But it happened and it was not because anybody wanted to urinate upon or disrespect on the family or national crest or flag.

It was wartime plain and simple. That kind of urgency has a brutal and immediate way of cutting through all the social nicities of normal life and rendering them all pretty meaningless.

I am not British but I read and have seen newsreels where during the bombing of Britain during WWII, the Queen (who I guess is now the Queen Mother) would visit bombsites the next day, sometimes even the same day to meet with people and keep spirits up by purchasing some little item or food product in the nieghborhood to show the people that normal life should go on. I was not there. But I have to imagine that the conduct of those neighborhood people in meeting the Queen in a bombed out store may have been just a tad bit different than a formal presentation to the Queen at a formal event at the palace. At least that is what the old newsreels showed.

Same here with Gimli on the throne.
This so called lack of respect appears to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Well, actually, the dear old soul is now departed--bless her gin-soddened heart.

But LotR is not The Dam Busters or The Longest Day or The Great Escape or Midway or Saving Sargeant Ryan or Sophie's Choice or Schindler's List. It is feigned history cast in the form of fantasy. It has elves and dwarves, giant eagles, gigantic spider monsters, talking trees and hobbits. So it has a style and ethos different from the mode you mention--and after all newsreels of the time were highly propagandistic. It partakes of the old epic warrior code rather than the modern anti-heroic one.

The very fact that it is so different from such historical realism is what makes LotR so attractive for many. And when PJ's interpretation (which he is allowed) does not encompass that, it highlights the absence of high fantasy.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

With all this on the plate of Aragorn, Gandalf and group, is it logical to stand on manners and ceremony at this most crucial of times? During World War II lots of major buildings all over Europe were turned into war rooms where meetings were held and I would bet that the previous occupants would be shocked if they could see soldiers putting their feet up on that highly polished mahogany table or putting a cigar out on the family china. But it happened and it was not because anybody wanted to urinate upon or disrespect on the family or national crest or flag.

It was wartime plain and simple. That kind of urgency has a brutal and immediate way of cutting through all the social nicities of normal life and rendering them all pretty meaningless.

I am not British but I read and have seen newsreels where during the bombing of Britain during WWII, the Queen (who I guess is now the Queen Mother) would visit bombsites the next day, sometimes even the same day to meet with people and keep spirits up by purchasing some little item or food product in the nieghborhood to show the people that normal life should go on. I was not there. But I have to imagine that the conduct of those neighborhood people in meeting the Queen in a bombed out store may have been just a tad bit different than a formal presentation to the Queen at a formal event at the palace. At least that is what the old newsreels showed.

Same here with Gimli on the throne.
This so called lack of respect appears to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Let me reassure you that even in the depths of WWII the Great British sense of class and status was upheld. One of the most interesting things to see in the Cabinet War Rooms is the suite of offices deep in the cellars of Whitehall where the civil servants worked. Bear in mind that this place was intended to be the last refuge of Churchill, his cabinet and heads of the services, and even though the worst didn't come to pass, it was still at the centre of some hair-raising incidents.

Yet even through all this, notions of status were maintained. Civil servants were allocated desks, chairs and even sizes of the bits of carpet (bits because they only got a square of it) that would sit under their feet according to their rank.

I shouldn't imagine things were very much different in the dens of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and Roosevelt.

So the argument of "It was wartime!" doesn't hold up in regard to the higher echelons of society. Given that, even in the fantasy world of Gondor I think it would have been grossly disrespectful for someone 'common' to plonk his bum on the Steward's Chair.

However, and perhaps sadly, it's consistent with the role and character of Gimli as written by Jackson's team, as it's just one in a line of things that would be disrespectful to most, including standing on an ancestral tomb and belching at King Theoden. Maybe this is just how Jackson's team views Dwarves? As a rough 'n' ready race of people not interested in social niceties, and one which can provide a seam of cruel teenage humour, referring to the dwarf tossing and bearded lady jokes?

As for what the Steward's Chair may signify I'm reminded of the Speaker's Chair in the House of Commons - and interestingly, the Speaker historically fulfilled the role of the Crown's representative in Parliament, a role which only diminished with the English Civil War and the rise of (or more accurately, slow waking of) democracy. Though there are a number of roles from the Order of Precedence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_o...land_and_Wales that you could possibly equate with the Stewardship.

[Meriadoc1961]

"Umm, the Throne was not the chair of their 'just deceased fallen leader' Denethor; it was the ancient Seat of the Kings, untouched by the ruling Stewards, who sat in a plain stone chair at the foot of the empty Throne. But your comment does show that the actions PJ puts Gimli through need to be understood in movie terms because PJ does not deal with the meaning Tolkien gives to the Vacant Throne."

Bethberry, it is not the actual Throne of the King that is under discussion. It is Gimli seen sitting in the vacant seat of the Steward. I hope this clarifies things a bit better.

Merry

[Boromir88]

Point exactly is if Jackson chose not to change the location of the Last Debate to the "throne room" this discussion would not be taking place, as there would be no disrespectful dwarf sitting on a vacant steward's chair . Maybe they should have communed in the hallows where Denethor burns himself alive? Hmm..