Lack of respect displayed by Gimli

[Sauron the White]

Okay... lets approach this from a different tact. Forget for a minute about whose office was higher, who was in power and who was not, whose lineage was the more prestigious or lengthy, or what was the exact import of the various offices or thrones.

This was in the middle of war. The city had just been attacked by a couple of hundred thousand orcs, trolls, Nazgul and Grond thrown in for good measure. Large portions of it were destroyed and burned. Several sections of the city were probably largely uninhabitable. Lots of good people died in its defense. And then we realize that this is but a blip, a bump in the road. All means nothing if Frodo runs into serious opposition in Mordor and fails to complete his task.

With all this on the plate of Aragorn, Gandalf and group, is it logical to stand on manners and ceremony at this most crucial of times? During World War II lots of major buildings all over Europe were turned into war rooms where meetings were held and I would bet that the previous occupants would be shocked if they could see soldiers putting their feet up on that highly polished mahogany table or putting a cigar out on the family china. But it happened and it was not because anybody wanted to urinate upon or disrespect on the family or national crest or flag.

It was wartime plain and simple. That kind of urgency has a brutal and immediate way of cutting through all the social nicities of normal life and rendering them all pretty meaningless.

I am not British but I read and have seen newsreels where during the bombing of Britain during WWII, the Queen (who I guess is now the Queen Mother) would visit bombsites the next day, sometimes even the same day to meet with people and keep spirits up by purchasing some little item or food product in the nieghborhood to show the people that normal life should go on. I was not there. But I have to imagine that the conduct of those neighborhood people in meeting the Queen in a bombed out store may have been just a tad bit different than a formal presentation to the Queen at a formal event at the palace. At least that is what the old newsreels showed.

Same here with Gimli on the throne.
This so called lack of respect appears to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

One person's mountain is another person's molehill and vice versa. That's forum culture! Mountain or molehill is a matter of perspective - from which vantage point does one see it? You have every right to call it a molehill in your opinion, and another has just as much right to say it is a mountain for her or him. Neither should be disrespectful of the other person's right to see a matter as important or unimportant.

[Sauron the White]

Estelyn... yes. I accept that and understand that. My molehill and mountain reference was to what started the complaint --- the actions of Gimli. Gimli did not break up the stewards chair for kindling. He did not wipe his muddy boots upon the edges of the chair to clean them. He did not place a chamber pot underneath it. He did not carve his initials into it with the edge of his axe. He did not do anything that was a serious or gross breach of respect.

What did he do? He sat in a chair during a meeting in that room in the middle of a war council planning important strategy. The fate of the Free Peoples was hanging in the balance with important decisions to be made and be made rather quickly.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Okay... lets approach this from a different tact. Forget for a minute about whose office was higher, who was in power and who was not, whose lineage was the more prestigious or lengthy, or what was the exact import of the various offices or thrones.

This was in the middle of war. The city had just been attacked by a couple of hundred thousand orcs, trolls, Nazgul and Grond thrown in for good measure. Large portions of it were destroyed and burned. Several sections of the city were probably largely uninhabitable. Lots of good people died in its defense. And then we realize that this is but a blip, a bump in the road. All means nothing if Frodo runs into serious opposition in Mordor and fails to complete his task.

With all this on the plate of Aragorn, Gandalf and group, is it logical to stand on manners and ceremony at this most crucial of times? During World War II lots of major buildings all over Europe were turned into war rooms where meetings were held and I would bet that the previous occupants would be shocked if they could see soldiers putting their feet up on that highly polished mahogany table or putting a cigar out on the family china. But it happened and it was not because anybody wanted to urinate upon or disrespect on the family or national crest or flag.

It was wartime plain and simple. That kind of urgency has a brutal and immediate way of cutting through all the social nicities of normal life and rendering them all pretty meaningless.

I am not British but I read and have seen newsreels where during the bombing of Britain during WWII, the Queen (who I guess is now the Queen Mother) would visit bombsites the next day, sometimes even the same day to meet with people and keep spirits up by purchasing some little item or food product in the nieghborhood to show the people that normal life should go on. I was not there. But I have to imagine that the conduct of those neighborhood people in meeting the Queen in a bombed out store may have been just a tad bit different than a formal presentation to the Queen at a formal event at the palace. At least that is what the old newsreels showed.

Same here with Gimli on the throne.
This so called lack of respect appears to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Well, actually, the dear old soul is now departed--bless her gin-soddened heart.

But LotR is not The Dam Busters or The Longest Day or The Great Escape or Midway or Saving Sargeant Ryan or Sophie's Choice or Schindler's List. It is feigned history cast in the form of fantasy. It has elves and dwarves, giant eagles, gigantic spider monsters, talking trees and hobbits. So it has a style and ethos different from the mode you mention--and after all newsreels of the time were highly propagandistic. It partakes of the old epic warrior code rather than the modern anti-heroic one.

The very fact that it is so different from such historical realism is what makes LotR so attractive for many. And when PJ's interpretation (which he is allowed) does not encompass that, it highlights the absence of high fantasy.

[Gwathagor]

Well said!

[Sauron the White]

from Bethberry

The very fact that it is so different from such historical realism is what makes LotR so attractive for many. And when PJ's interpretation (which he is allowed) does not encompass that, it highlights the absence of high fantasy.

Yes, I understand your point and sympathize who approach it from that perspective. I can understand why some did not approve of the anti-hero/conflicted hero tinge that Aragorn received. I felt - that for the purposes of a film - the changes worked for with the modern audience - after all, Jackson was not selling tickets to the audience of D W Griffiths or even the WWII era.

My point about the Queen in WWII Britain was simply that in wartime allowances are made even among the royals in terms of relaxing ceremony and the pomp and circumstance of it all. And that was the condition depicted in ROTK.

In such times, actions which may otherwise be considered as breaches of manners or even disrespectful are allowed given the emergency circumstances everyone found themselves in.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

My point about the Queen in WWII Britain was simply that in wartime allowances are made even among the royals in terms of relaxing ceremony and the pomp and circumstance of it all. And that was the condition depicted in ROTK.

In such times, actions which may otherwise be considered as breaches of manners or even disrespectful are allowed given the emergency circumstances everyone found themselves in.

Well, yes, I suppose your point about the Royal Resolve does deserve more than a throw-away line.

I think the two examples, Her Majesty the Queen Mother's forays into the bombed out areas of London, and PJ's depiction of Gimli in the throne room, actually have opposite meanings, not the same meaning as you suggest.

First of all, Her Majesty had begun the habit of making tours into the public domain soon after the Abdication of Nauty Edward and subsequent Coronation of Shy George. These provincial tours were designed to bring the new king more into the public eye and help eradicate the perceived scourge of the Abdication. So they were a form symbolic role playing, something the former Duchess of York was exceptionally gifted at, particularly with her great social ability of 'connecting' with people. Even before the war, she was engaged in "Majesty-making."

And this is what the tours of bombed London were designed to continue--to instill in the British people a sense of steadfast, brave and unflinching continuation of the stiff upper lip, of British resolve and the British way of life in the time of, in the words of her Bulldog, "their darkest hour". In creating this symbolic role of Mother and Grandmother, she was maintaining and perpetuating Royal Authority and Royal Resolve and thereby gave hope and encouragement to her subjects. The chaos and disaster of war did not diminish the Royal Presence or the sense of Social Order, but magnified it.

The newsreels ate it up.

PJ's flippant positioning of Gimli does not do this. It does not lend authority and credence to The New Hope but rather reinforces the condition, as you said earlier, that normal life was rendered meaningless.

Originally Posted by StW

It was wartime plain and simple. That kind of urgency has a brutal and immediate way of cutting through all the social nicities of normal life and rendering them all pretty meaningless.

Perhaps the difficulty PJ faced was the cynicism of contemporary culture over heroism in war--or over just plain war. But the grace and presence of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, born a commoner, told a different tale. Pity that PJ could not have imagined that.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

With all this on the plate of Aragorn, Gandalf and group, is it logical to stand on manners and ceremony at this most crucial of times? During World War II lots of major buildings all over Europe were turned into war rooms where meetings were held and I would bet that the previous occupants would be shocked if they could see soldiers putting their feet up on that highly polished mahogany table or putting a cigar out on the family china. But it happened and it was not because anybody wanted to urinate upon or disrespect on the family or national crest or flag.

It was wartime plain and simple. That kind of urgency has a brutal and immediate way of cutting through all the social nicities of normal life and rendering them all pretty meaningless.

I am not British but I read and have seen newsreels where during the bombing of Britain during WWII, the Queen (who I guess is now the Queen Mother) would visit bombsites the next day, sometimes even the same day to meet with people and keep spirits up by purchasing some little item or food product in the nieghborhood to show the people that normal life should go on. I was not there. But I have to imagine that the conduct of those neighborhood people in meeting the Queen in a bombed out store may have been just a tad bit different than a formal presentation to the Queen at a formal event at the palace. At least that is what the old newsreels showed.

Same here with Gimli on the throne.
This so called lack of respect appears to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Let me reassure you that even in the depths of WWII the Great British sense of class and status was upheld. One of the most interesting things to see in the Cabinet War Rooms is the suite of offices deep in the cellars of Whitehall where the civil servants worked. Bear in mind that this place was intended to be the last refuge of Churchill, his cabinet and heads of the services, and even though the worst didn't come to pass, it was still at the centre of some hair-raising incidents.

Yet even through all this, notions of status were maintained. Civil servants were allocated desks, chairs and even sizes of the bits of carpet (bits because they only got a square of it) that would sit under their feet according to their rank.

I shouldn't imagine things were very much different in the dens of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and Roosevelt.

So the argument of "It was wartime!" doesn't hold up in regard to the higher echelons of society. Given that, even in the fantasy world of Gondor I think it would have been grossly disrespectful for someone 'common' to plonk his bum on the Steward's Chair.

However, and perhaps sadly, it's consistent with the role and character of Gimli as written by Jackson's team, as it's just one in a line of things that would be disrespectful to most, including standing on an ancestral tomb and belching at King Theoden. Maybe this is just how Jackson's team views Dwarves? As a rough 'n' ready race of people not interested in social niceties, and one which can provide a seam of cruel teenage humour, referring to the dwarf tossing and bearded lady jokes?

As for what the Steward's Chair may signify I'm reminded of the Speaker's Chair in the House of Commons - and interestingly, the Speaker historically fulfilled the role of the Crown's representative in Parliament, a role which only diminished with the English Civil War and the rise of (or more accurately, slow waking of) democracy. Though there are a number of roles from the Order of Precedence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_o...land_and_Wales that you could possibly equate with the Stewardship.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yet even through all this, notions of status were maintained. Civil servants were allocated desks, chairs and even sizes of the bits of carpet (bits because they only got a square of it) that would sit under their feet according to their rank.

I shouldn't imagine things were very much different in the dens of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and Roosevelt.

So the argument of "It was wartime!" doesn't hold up in regard to the higher echelons of society. Given that, even in the fantasy world of Gondor I think it would have been grossly disrespectful for someone 'common' to plonk his bum on the Steward's Chair.

Thank you for giving us that insight of England during wartime! That is exactly right - "it was wartime" is not a valid reason for the disrespect shown by PJ's Gimli.