Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Now here's a thorny question. If you had been given a whole extra hour of Auntie's time, would you still have cut out Tom?

Unfair!! I might have done, but a lot of other good material was also cut that - had there been time - might have cried out for reinstatement...

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

At least, speaking as an out and out Tom-nut, you did the cut coherently. What bothered me with the films was that where a change had to be made, it so often messed about with the integrity of narrative and character. It might be fun to listen to the early episodes but with the further adaptation of the three Tom chapters inserted into place.

I tried this - some years ago - but the changes in everyone's voices (and having 'Gandalf' as narrator) was just too distracting. However, content-wise, I think, it works...

[Sauron the White]

from davem

One thing I will always be grateful to you for is in showing (as with Faramir later) that this episode, & Tom in particular, can work in a dramatisation. It annoys me when people simply dismiss the possibility as an excuse for not attempting it.

One listens to the radio with their ears and supplies the pictures in their mind. That is a huge difference compared to a film in that we get the whole thing and the mind does not do much other than process it. What you see is what you get.

Tom Bombadil was a visual train wreck as written. On the screen he would have been a total disaster and that would have started with that dreadful costume. On radio, that visual handicap is removed quite nicely.

One cannot compare two different types of medium and draw conclusions about the quality of one based on the essence and features of a different one.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

from davem
One listens to the radio with their ears and supplies the pictures in their mind. That is a huge difference compared to a film in that we get the whole thing and the mind does not do much other than process it. What you see is what you get.

But if a listener 'supplies the pictures in their mind' then they do experience the episode 'visually'. If the episode is not a 'visual train wreck' in my head when I read it/listen to the radio adaptation then I can't see that it would inevitably be so if it was put on screen.

Now, I accept that it wouldn't have worked in Jackson's movie, but I don't think that means it couldn't have worked per se. Talking eagles would not have worked (let alone singing ones) in Jackson's movie either. If you claim that 'x' couldn't work in a movie or other visual dramatic representation you're also saying, by extension that its impossible to visualise - because if a reader/listener can picture the episode as they read it/listen to it then it can also be put on screen. Now, you may not want to see it on screen, or want anyone else to see it on screen, but that is not at all the same thing as saying its impossible to put it on screen. Certainly I've heard plenty of people say that the Bombadil/Old Forest/Barrow Downs episode is impossible to dramatise in any form, but I think Brian's adaptation disproves that completely - because it does work[/i]. Of course, you'd have to hear it to appreciate how well it works. And I think if you do hear it you'll see that it could be translated into a visual form.

[Sauron the White]

Davem ... I have not one iota of criticsim of the radio play including Bombadil. And I take no issue with you at all that his inclusion worked in that medium. Kudos to Brian Sibley and the others responsible for that accomplishment.

I imagine if one were making a film of the LOTR as something rather surreal or an other wordly, other dimensional like Dr. Seuss then you could try to include Bombadil and it might work. But Jackson opted for a realistic world, and a more serious one which had no room for that character.

If you claim that 'x' couldn't work in a movie or other visual dramatic representation you're also saying, by extension that its impossible to visualise - because if a reader/listener can picture the episode as they read it/listen to it then it can also be put on screen.

Just because some people can see it in their minds eye does not mean it can be put on film successfully. A person can read the most disgusting description of violence but process it so that it is softened and they can accept it. The same with anything else they read. On a film screen that does not happen because it is all there for you and your only choice is to look away or reject it by laughing at its absurdity. I am afraid that when you combine the visual of TB along with his doggerel poetry, the result would have been the latter one in theaters around the world. And that does not make for a successful film.

[davem]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. We've argued over this point before on other threads & I want to keep this one focussed on the radio series - of course, if you want to start up a thread on different possible approaches to adapting Tolkien to film I'd be happy to jump in.

[ArathornJax]

Today I listened to the period of Weathertop and the Lay of Luthien, to the attack by the five Nazgul, to the journey to Weathertop to the reunion with Bilbo.

Before I begin, I want to share one thing on Frodo and the Cow Jumped Over the Moon. I think it is ok for Ian Holm not to have 'sung' the song. I think that of the many wonderful characteristics of Frodo, he may not have been able to carry a tune. Then again, I am one of those people who can do a lot of things, but I cannot sing well (well, my wife says if I sing alone I have a wonderful voice!).

So today I had a little less time as I was on the cell with someone about a rather large presentation I have tomorrow.

I began with the four hobbits and Strider on Weathertop. The shadows of evening were falling and night had come on. The hobbits wanted to learn more of Gil-Galad and Frodo started, but when they go to the part on Mordor, Strider changed the subject and told them of Luthien and Beren. I really enjoyed here how Strider let them know of the lay without all the in depth details. I feel this is really in tune with the story in the FOTR. I could see the moon rising and meaning it was late; something as a backpacker and camper I can readily imagine!

As the Nazgul attacked, I realized today that their noise reminded me of a snake hiss, or even a cat hiss. Maybe some Cryptozoologist would love to decipher that sound, (any hints on what it is?), but I think it is very appropriate because it does remind me of a creature who is bold and treacherous, using every means to hunt it's prey. Not sure that is what you met, but it is what comes into my mind. It reminds me of a big cat hiss like a mountain lion, and since the Nazgul to this point seem to use cunning, their senses like smell to hunt, it might be a good connection. I imagine their actions to be almost cat like as well, bold and swift, strong and silent.

I felt that the actual attack on Weathertop was handled as I would want an adaptation to be. The main points were covered and it reached the image into my mind. A question I have here for anyone is we know that the daggers of the hobbits carried magic/spells on them that were hurtful to the Nazgul (or at least the Witchking). So was it the name of Elbereth that was hurtful by itself, or did the Witch King see the threat of the dagger and that was his fear? Perhaps a combination of both?

The journey to Rivendale was quick for me today. I need to re-listen because I thought that the part where the travellers discover Bilbo's trolls was missing. I could be wrong as I am really tired today but would love to hear if anyone else missed it? I like that part in the book and in adaptations because it links The Hobbit to the FOTR.

I am SO glad also in this part that Glorfindal's horse did not sound like sleigh bells, or a big cow bell, or Santa and his merry reindeer. I think that part is hard to come up with, a sound to distinguish Asfaloth from the horses of the Nazgul. The transition of the flood and Frodo fading to waking up with Gandalf was well handled.

I know some will differ with me, but I like the adaptation in the audio. I felt that the conversation between Frodo and Gandalf seemed to shine, and for the first time, Michael Hordern really seem to capture the role for me. He is able to show Gandalf in a variety of roles. I think for me, this is where he began to emerge in the adaptation.

Again we can see where mention to an event in the story is given a nod towards, but in earnest to move the story along the actual feast scene is only mentioned. Thus there is no Gloin interaction. Instead, Gloin's role is given to his son, Gimli. I'm fine with this as Jackson also did something similar in FOTR by showing several dwarfs with an older one with Gimli at the council. The conversation between Frodo and Bilbo in the Hall of Fire was a nice reunion and one that has to be done. I agree with this decision to keep the reunion in the adaptation and just giving a nod to the feast, with an emphasis on the most important part . . . Arwen's life and her and Aragorn's love.

Well, Sam came for Frodo so he could get his rest, and I have a rather large day tomorrow so it is off to bed for me. Tomorrow will be the Council I do believe!

Brian, I haven't added my two cents, but I want to thank you so much on a personal level for the adaptation. I love and enjoy listening to it once or twice a year and it makes a commute enjoyable. As a father and someone who was raised to read, this was a gift I wanted to give to my children. Your adaptation played a huge role in getting my kids when they were young to become readers, and I mean readers, people who digest a book and enjoy it.
More importantly, the adaptation got my kids using their imaginations to see things in their minds, and this carried over to their reading (into their play and thus into their lives). As a result, besides becoming critical thinkers, they are very, very creative. So thanks again for all your efforts. None of us never know when something we do will have an impact on someone so many years later!

Cheers!

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I want to share one thing on Frodo and the Cow Jumped Over the Moon. I think it is ok for Ian Holm not to have 'sung' the song. I think that of the many wonderful characteristics of Frodo, he may not have been able to carry a tune.

True... I think it would have been better for him to have recited the verses... Still, unlike the film, at least it is there!!!

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

As the Nazgul attacked, I realized today that their noise reminded me of a snake hiss, or even a cat hiss. Maybe some Cryptozoologist would love to decipher that sound, (any hints on what it is?), but I think it is very appropriate because it does remind me of a creature who is bold and treacherous, using every means to hunt it's prey. Not sure that is what you meant, but it is what comes into my mind. It reminds me of a big cat hiss like a mountain lion, and since the Nazgul to this point seem to use cunning, their senses like smell to hunt, it might be a good connection. I imagine their actions to be almost cat like as well, bold and swift, strong and silent.

An interesting interpretation of the sound. If I remember rightly and my memory may well be faulty, the actors playing the Nazgul exhaled at the microphone and this sound was then 'treated' radiophonically.

My recollection is hazy, but I think that our reasoning was that the name of 'Elbereth' was what repelled the Witch King, since the knives were not those taken from the Barrows...

Except, of course, if you follow the argument put forward on this forum that the Tom Bombadil/Barrow-Downs incidents COULD have occurred but are simply not reported, then they may, indeed, have had those blades!

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

The journey to Rivendale was quick for me today. I need to re-listen because I thought that the part where the travellers discover Bilbo's trolls was missing. I could be wrong as I am really tired today but would love to hear if anyone else missed it? I like that part in the book and in adaptations because it links The Hobbit to the FOTR.

No, the trolls were omitted. Sorry. I remember being envious when I first saw the Trollshaws figures created for the Jackson film and thinking that he's done something visually that we hadn't done... But in the end, I believe, we had to wait for the extended version to see them!

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

Brian, I haven't added my two cents, but I want to thank you so much on a personal level for the adaptation. I love and enjoy listening to it once or twice a year and it makes a commute enjoyable...

...More importantly, the adaptation got my kids using their imaginations to see things in their minds, and this carried over to their reading (into their play and thus into their lives). As a result, besides becoming critical thinkers, they are very, very creative. So thanks again for all your efforts. None of us never know when something we do will have an impact on someone so many years later!

Wow... You (and everyone on this forum) are terribly kind... And now I'm going to share a small confession with you all...

For several years after TLOTR, I used to get very frustrated about being described and introduced to people as "The man who did the radio Lord of the Rings..." It was especially irksome when reviewers referred to it when writing about whatever my current project was...

I was employed to write the 'narrative' on Jeff Wayne's long-forgotten concept album, Spartacus, on the strength of LOTR... I was allowed to dramatise C S Lewis' 'Chronicles of Narnia' and, later, Mervyn Peake's Titus Groan and Gormenghast for radio because of it (and won a Sony radio Award for the Peake plays) but I was still described as "The man who....." And I resented it like H***!

Nowadays, when I can't get a single project on radio and most people in the BBC have never heard of me and haven't the faintest idea what I have done, I am rather more humble!

I have learned - as well need to do - that, for the most part in life, we do not know what effect our work or deeds have in the wider world --- which is, perhaps, the best arrangement for things!

Like Tolkien's Niggle we may aim to create the most beautiful painting of a tree imaginable, but if we are remembered for even a single leaf then that is an achievement - a blessing - for which the artist should be very grateful... And, believe me, I am!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

Unfair!! I might have done, but a lot of other good material was also cut that - had there been time - might have cried out for reinstatement...

Hmmm, does this mean there are some 'out-takes' and deleted scenes lurking in the cellars of Broadcasting House?

No, the trolls were omitted. Sorry. I remember being envious when I first saw the Trollshaws figures created for the Jackson film and thinking that he's done something visually that we hadn't done... But in the end, I believe, we had to wait for the extended version to see them!

I think that leaving them out was a sensible move myself. The stone trolls don't 'do' anything beyond prompting more tales and to try to portray them coherently in an audio format would have taken up far too much time I think. The one benefit of film/TV is that you can simply make a sculpture of something like that (or the fallen 'head' decked in flowers at the Crossroads - for another example) and have it sitting in the background while dialogue or action is happening.

Of course the listener to the radio version is always free to imagine the things the group might be passing on their way to Rivendell.

Anyway. I'm intrigued about these radio plays of the Gormenghast books now and I'm going to have to see if I can find a copy of those! I hope I can - and maybe they will become more widely known because one thing I've noticed is that Peake's work is finally getting a bit more recognition these days - he even shares double billing with Tolkien in next week's episode of The Worlds of Fantasy!

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Hmmm, does this mean there are some 'out-takes' and deleted scenes lurking in the cellars of Broadcasting House?

I wish! None of that material was kept and all the music tracks were later 'wiped'...

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'm intrigued about these radio plays of the Gormenghast books now and I'm going to have to see if I can find a copy of those! I hope I can - and maybe they will become more widely known because one thing I've noticed is that Peake's work is finally getting a bit more recognition these days - he even shares double billing with Tolkien in next week's episode of The Worlds of Fantasy!

The BBC never issued the plays on CD, but there are still copies of the audio cassettes. You'll find details on my website (on this page - towards the bottom!) Brian's CD and Cassette recordings. The plays starred Sting (as Steerpike) with Freddie Jones, Bernard Hepton, Sheila Hancock, Eleanor Bron, Judy Parfitt et al...

Now... BACK TO MIDDLE-EARTH, PLEASE!!