Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[davem]

Which reminds me of something I wanted to ask Brian....

I've heard you say a couple of times that when you first suggested adapting LotR for Radio 4 you were surprised to be told that the BBC were actively negotiating the radio rights. What I was wondering was whether Christopher Tolkien required, as part of those rights, that he should approve the scripts, or was your sending them to him merely a matter of courtesy? And did he retain any right to 'veto' anything he didn't approve of - not that I'm suggesting he'd need to, just wondering whether he had that right included in the original contract. And if there had been something in the scripts that you liked but he didn't, would you have changed it?

Actually, I'm just interested to know the extent of his involvement beyond making the tape (oh, & do you know what actually happened to that tape? I wish you'd played more of it on that far distant day at the Church House Bookshop.....)

And, now I think of it, does the BBC still own the radio rights, or did they just negotiate for this one production?

[ArathornJax]

I didn't have much listening time today (but will tomorrow driving home from the conference). Today I listen to the council of Elrond, to the departure, to the Red Horn Gate and the snowfall blocking them.

I enjoyed the Council of Elrond and especially liked Elrond's adaptation. He is more in line with what I feel Elrond is like (at least for me). No disrespect to Hugo Weaving, I just didn't like the adaptation that Elrond actively tried to stop the union of Aragorn and Arwen in the movie adaptations. In the movies Elrond reminds me much more of Thingol. In this adaptation Elrond recognizes that he cannot control who his daughter falls in love with (and isn't that so very true for those of us who have daughters!) but he is in a position to set the terms that her husband will have to fulfill.

Not sure if this is the place, and this might be a new thread to make in the book section, but I have always marveled at the contrast between Elrond and Thngol. Both had daughters who fell in love with mortal men and plodded their troths to them. Both fathers set conditions to that had to be fulfilled prior to the marriage occurring. This is where I go back and forth for Thingol gave Beren such a insurmountable task, almost a certain death sentence in his mind. Was Elrond's condition as drastic as Thingol's? Was becoming king of both Gondor and Arnor also almost a insurmountable task? Based on the book and the radio adaptation I have always felt that Elrond felt there was a hope, even if it was only a fool's hope. I still feel that Thingol was spiteful to Beren to where Elrond was securing his daughters future legacy. Also, I think Elrond might have guessed that this was the way that Luthien's line would continue on til the end of the world. Or it just could be that Elrond was a overly protective father. Guess I am just thinking aloud.

Anyway, I have to say that whenever I hear Michael Cox's speaking as Boromir I see in my mind's eye Ralph Bakshi's version of Boromir and I don't know why. Boromir to me has never looked like an Viking warrior (Viking's didn't wear horns). I imagine Boromir as a noble Norman knight from William I's era. I think that is because of his instance to use the ring for victory, not thinking of the cost, just full steam ahead and ram it down the enemy's throat. Please don't take this to mean that I don't enjoy Mr. Cox's Boromir, I do, and I think his portrayal brings to me a strong willed Boromir who is like all of us, susceptible of falling to the evil and temptations of the ring. I just have to get that image out of my head though.

One of the things that stuck out to me (and I know the pause before Frodo's acceptance of the task of ringbearer has been discussed) is that Elrond and for that matter, I think Gandalf have seen something in Frodo that is fore-ordained for taking this task. I guess the question that came to me today in listening then is what did Elrond see in Frodo that made him guess that if Frodo did not find a way, no one would? Was it Frodo's ability to withstand the evil of the ring? Did Elrond's relationship with Bilbo give Elrond insight into hobbits ability to withstand the evil of the ring? For me it goes to what Bilbo and Frodo were focused on, others and not themselves; unselfishness vs. selfishness; friendship vs animosity; hope vs. despair etc.

This nature also I think is why Gandalf convinces Elrond to allow Merry and Pippin to go. One thing I noticed and I may have to look back on the thread is the bell that rings right before Frodo accepts the task. Is that just because the bell was letting us know sometime had pass and then Frodo accepts?

The journey south is uneventful. The scene with the carrion is removed and that is easy to understand why. The debate between Gandalf and Frodo follows the book and the march up the RedHorn is one I enjoy. I love the banter between Gandalf and Legolas on the sun and the actors here nailed the dialogue I felt. I love Sam's "if this is a shelter then a house is one wall with no roof" comment also. What an interesting contrast this scene with Sam will be versus how he acts in Mordor and on Mt. Doom.
Another thing I love in this scene are the fell voices in the storm. If you listen carefully, they are there in the background and that was a very nice and subtle affect. I love how this scene shows how the power of Sauron has grown long enough to reach out 300 leagues and bring that bad of weather on the ground.

Another thing I noticed today is that Caradhras was evil in nature long before Sauron was every heard of. This for me shows much like the Matterhorn and other mountains in the Alps (and in the world for that matter), have developed a bad reputation about them.

Well, I guess I got more out of the short listening today that I thought. An observation though. I read the complete trilogy once a year and yet in listening to the adaptation it still brings many new insights and thoughts to me. Just another sign of what an excellent work it is!

[davem]

Now you see, there's always one who has to charge ahead of everybody else...

We're only up to Episode Three, & Frodo has just accepted the Quest. He'll be setting out with his Fellows on Sunday. At the moment he's still safely in Rivendell

I suspect, AJ, that you've been following a set of cunningly disguised decoys sent out by Elrond to distract the Servants of the Enemy...

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

One thing I noticed and I may have to look back on the thread is the bell that rings right before Frodo accepts the task. Is that just because the bell was letting us know sometime had pass and then Frodo accepts?

At the conclusion of the Council of Elrond (Bk II, Chap 2) the question is asked who is to take the Ring. Tolkien writes...

'No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him... ...At last with an effort he spoke and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice. "I will take the Ring," said, "though I do not know the way."'

The 'ting' that you hear is supposed to be 'the noon-bell'... Oh, welll......

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by davem

Which reminds me of something I wanted to ask Brian....

I've heard you say a couple of times that when you first suggested adapting LotR for Radio 4 you were surprised to be told that the BBC were actively negotiating the radio rights. What I was wondering was whether Christopher Tolkien required, as part of those rights, that he should approve the scripts, or was your sending them to him merely a matter of courtesy? And did he retain any right to 'veto' anything he didn't approve of - not that I'm suggesting he'd need to, just wondering whether he had that right included in the original contract. And if there had been something in the scripts that you liked but he didn't, would you have changed it?

I can't now remember - and, indeed, was probably not even told - the terms of the BBC deal with the Tolkien Estate.

Before I came onto the project, the BBC had been negotiating - for some time, I believe - with Saul Zaentz whom, it was assumed, owned the radio along with the film and theatrical rights in TLOTR. Only after the BBC had paid SZ the agreed fee did it somehow emerge that the radio rights were never part of the original deal with JRRT.

Zaentz returned the payment and fresh negotiations were entered into with the Tolkien Estate.

I doubt that the BBC would have agreed to his having a power of veto and I do remember very clearly that we were not allowed to say that the series was 'approved' or 'endorsed' by Christopher Tolkien. My understanding was that CT was shown the scripts as a courtesy and because we wanted his advice and the benefit of his knowledge.

He was shown my original 'synopsis' (the scene-by-scene breakdown of the 26 episodes) which included the page numbers of each section (one volume paperback for convenience) and similar references where material was taken from The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales, as well as indicating cuts and omissions.

He was then show each of the finished scripts which he critiqued - pointing out errors in detail or chronology, asking questions and making suggestions. I know Michael Bakewell has said that CT asked why Pippin was so stupid (Michael frequently used Pippin to ask questions so that other characters could deliver passages of essential information necessary for the audience's understanding of what was going on) but I can't recall other specific instances of his responses... Sorry! It is over 25 years ago...

Somewhere, someone probably has those letters... Or maybe, like the original tapes, they have been 'lost'...

Originally Posted by davem

Actually, I'm just interested to know the extent of his involvement beyond making the tape (oh, & do you know what actually happened to that tape? I wish you'd played more of it on that far distant day at the Church House Bookshop.....)

I have a copy of the tape -- or, I should say, a tape because I have since heard the Church House Bookshop recording in which I say that we had to ask Christopher for more tapes...

Anyway, I have the first and included, with permission, a snippet of it on the 'bonus' disc to the 'Collector's Edition' [the 'Ring' tin] -- titled, like everything else, 'Microphones in Middle-earth' -- which, as you will have seen on my website, is currently being sold by Amazon for somewhere in the region of £200!

Originally Posted by davem

And, now I think of it, does the BBC still own the radio rights, or did they just negotiate for this one production?

I doubt it... Not that the present-day BBC would ever embark on a re-make. In fact I doubt they will ever re-broadcast the series on Radio 4. They wanted to broadcast it on their archive channel - Radio 7 (who only give minuscule token payments for repeats) - but abandoned the idea because of the copyrights involved - which would include those of the rights-holders. It is possible that the Estate don't even control the radio rights any longer.

[davem]

Thanks so much for that

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

I have a copy of the tape -- or, I should say, a tape because I have since heard the Church House Bookshop recording in which I say that we had to ask Christopher for more tapes...

I really wish I could have heard more of that recording - CT seemed quite self-effacing: I'm thinking of the 'Thengel/Thenjel' thing & the mention of the error on the map being his fault (Hithaeglin rather than Hithaeglir). Now, I note from checking my first edition copies that Hithaeglin only appears on the First edition maps, & was corrected to Hithaeglir for the Second Edition - so, were you working from the First Edition map or was that just an interesting typo on the list you sent CT?

I love that Church House recording - though I'm not sure Stephen Oliver's annecdote on the afternoon he spent teaching the Ambrosian Singers the song from the Field of Cormallen would be quite acceptable in these more PC times ('Like teaching disabled children to sing God save the Queen'!). I also had to laugh at the reaction he got from the audience when he said that he found Tolkien's verse to be 'poor' - I'm surprised he got out of there alive

I doubt it... Not that the present-day BBC would ever embark on a re-make. In fact I doubt they will ever re-broadcast the series on Radio 4. They wanted to broadcast it on their archive channel - Radio 7 (who only give minuscule token payments for repeats) - but abandoned the idea because of the copyrights involved - which would include those of the rights-holders. It is possible that the Estate don't even control the radio rights any longer.

I did read somewhere that LotR is the most requested programme for a repeat on Radio 7. I don't expect to hear the series broadcast again, sadly the BBC seems to be a lot less adventurous as regards radio drama these days. I doubt they'd commision anything like LotR again. Puts paid to my dream of a Silmarillion dramatisation - or even a Children of Hurin...

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by davem

Now, I note from checking my first edition copies that Hithaeglin only appears on the First edition maps, & was corrected to Hithaeglir for the Second Edition - so, were you working from the First Edition map or was that just an interesting typo on the list you sent CT?

I was working from the 2nd Impression of the Second Edition (1967) and the map in that edition shows Hithaeglir as Hithaiglin.

Originally Posted by davem

I did read somewhere that LotR is the most requested programme for a repeat on Radio 7. I don't expect to hear the series broadcast again, sadly the BBC seems to be a lot less adventurous as regards radio drama these days. I doubt they'd commision anything like LotR again. Puts paid to my dream of a Silmarillion dramatisation - or even a Children of Hurin...

A few years ago, I had a short-lived discussion with the BBC about The Silmarillion when they were thinking of having a Tolkien Day with sections of TS broadcast throughout the day. It came to nothing...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

I was working from the 2nd Impression of the Second Edition (1967) and the map in that edition shows Hithaeglir as Hithaiglin.
.

Yes - my mistake. I've re-checked my copies - in my 1965 First edition (& no, for the pedants out there its not a first/first, but it is the first ed. text & map) the map shows Hithaiglin, & also in my second ed. Two Towers from 1969 its Hithaiglin (as also in my 1976 paperback set - which was the first copy of LotR I bought). Its Hithaeglir in the Alan Lee illustrated deluxe ed - which was the 2nd edition copy I checked for comparison - but I think the correction might have been made originally in the re-drawn map which CT did for Unfinished Tales in 1981.

Er....sorry everybody for that rather dull digression......

[davem]

Transcript: http://www.tolkienradio.com/ringgoessouth.html

I love this episode. We begin in the peace & security of Rvendell & end in the darkness & horror of Moria. Along the way we pass through Hollin, suffer the attack of Wargs, struggle through the snows of Caradhras & face the long dark of Moria.

Again, so much of the power of the drama comes from the use of Tolkien's own words, both via narration & dialogue. I particularly liked the gathering of the Fellowship scene . We get the sense that Elrond is facing a truly painful decision (though as with the book we aren't told why, exactly, he feels the need to choose nine companions, rather than 5, 10, or a nice round dozen!). The scene between Frodo & Bilbo, and particularly Frodo's awkward expression of gratitude to Bilbo for everything he has done for him (clearly extending right back to his adopting him after his parents' deaths) is quite beautiful. You get the sense that he's never actually said thankyou before - well, not in words (typically English - as is Bilbo's response - telling him not to mention it), but he knows this may be the last time they get the chance to say it.

One thing I liked was the way Gandalf's determination to get the Company into Moria was constantly played up - he is clearly steering them that way, & grabbing every opportunity to get the idea into the forefront of their minds. He wants them all to go through the Mines - as if he is aware that his destiny lies that way.

Another thing: Gimli. A person rather than comic relief. He is full of old lore & the wisdom of his folk. He chants the Song of Durin - & Sam is enthralled. In fact, what I love about this adaptation is that all the characters are given the chance to reveal their characters (often via little scenes or asides & comments). Sam's little comments to Bill are nice & really bring home how much he cares about him. His grief over the death of Balin, & the state to which Moria has come is subtly done but quite heartbreaking.

Anyway, as this is by way of an introduction to our discussion of the episode I'll keep it short. The only other thing I wanted to mention was the Balrog confrontation. David Collings was amazing - the sheer terror in his cry as the Balrog appeared was heart-stopping, & communicates to the audience a whole hidden history. Even a listener who does not know what a Balrog is (we are given no explanation of what it is, & no description of what it looks like), knows that this is the ultimate manifestation of destructive evil & sheer horror - the actors' voices convey that perfectly.

So, off we go....

[ArathornJax]

Well I listen to this section and started the next one today on the drive home. My son has confirmed Influenza Type A so I don't have a lot of time right now (want to make sure he is ok, and he is watching the Extended Two Towers so I can sit with him through that) and the post I had spent 10 minutes putting together became lost as my MacBook Pro lost connection with my wireless adapter (I need to buy a new wireless adapter to work with the one in the MacBook Pro). So I'll post on this section tomorrow.