Stereotypes

[The Sixth Wizard]

The thought that dwarvish language was based upon Semitic languages raises some questions as to what else in Tolkien based upon Semitic, or shall we cut to the chase and say Jewish, people. Tolkien's dwarves are bearded, greedy and determined hoarders, which sounds a lot like some racist Jewish stereotypes.

Could someone provide the link to the thread where members were debating whether or not Tolkien's books were racist? After all, he made Southrons swarthy, cruel, riders of elephants, my emphasis on "swarthy".

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think you are jumping to conclutions when you say that be semitic Tolkien ment the Jews and it is one of those things that could spark a heated debate, which will get this discustion way off track.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The thought that dwarvish language was based upon Semitic languages raises some questions as to what else in Tolkien based upon Semitic, or shall we cut to the chase and say Jewish, people. Tolkien's dwarves are bearded, greedy and determined hoarders, which sounds a lot like some racist Jewish stereotypes.

Hmm... if anything I would think that the elves would be more like the Jews. After all they were the first beings to be created, that ties into them being God's chosen people


I just love how Tolkien created all these different cultures within Middle Earth. For example we have Southrons, Easterlings, Gondorians, Breelanders, the Men of Dale, and not to mention all the different hobbit families. It is one of those things that you can relate to in Tolkien's works. That’s the one thing that I love about Tolkien, you never doubt the it as being fantasy, yet you can find parallels between his world and ours.

I think that's one of the things that people have tried to copy from his books, fantasy that you can relate to.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Hmm... if anything I would think that the elves would be more like the Jews. After all they were the first beings to be created, that ties into them being God's chosen people

Just a side note: if you were to ascribe such thing to anyone in M-E, it would be the Dúnedain, I think (or then, some Vanyar, if you were to stick to the Elves. However). Because "chosen people" are already chosen (obviously) from some group which already exists. Using the biblical comparison, God created all people, and Abraham is just one of them (and even that after a long time). But Adam, Eve and all the others are simply ordinary people. Also, in Middle-Earth you have the problem with there being two, and not just one, such races - Men and Elves. And if we were to seek for a nation, or a group among them with the vocation like the biblical Israel, then I don't think there actually really is such a nation in the very same sense. Among the Men, like I said, I would speak about the Dúnedain. Because between the Elves, you really don't have anyone who would be specifically chosen to mediate, or at least carry, Eru's (or anyone's) will. We cannot compare it to the invitation to Valinor, as that's actually the opposite direction. And in any case, all Elves are invited by Oromë personally, it's not that he would invite just one group and then f.ex. let them tell to the rest (however that's not exactly the role ascribed to the biblical Israel as well). And by leaving, that group will leave the other Elves in Middle-Earth. That doesn't make sense. We would be looking for some Anti-Noldor, probably: a group who will be re-sent to Middle-Earth to act in a certain way among the other nations. However even then it will be just a single act, once they left, the contact with Valinor will be cut again. So, maybe some Teleri? Like the ones who kept communicating with Númenor. Or then, among the Men, the Dúnedain themselves. After their return to Middle-Earth after the fall of Númenor, the role of Dúnedain was probably the closest to the role of the Chosen People: to be a living reminder of something among the other nations (of Men, in this case). However, still in contrary to the people of biblical Israel, the Dúnedain had a prominent role in the structures of power in Middle-Earth.

If I were to say whom I really think close to this, it will be only one person, and that's Tuor, who is personally in contact with one of the Valar (!) and is given a certain task. But that's only one episode, however by its nature I consider it very close. Also, this trait goes with his family - Eärendil later is the one to reach Valinor and is given the favour to speak again to the Valar and ask for help as a representative of all the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth; and ultimately, it comes down to their descendants, who are the Dúnedain - so this is what I said above. So maybe this.

Hmm... But that would be probably better for another thread.

In any case, I don't think the way you put it was not the original meaning of how the comparison was meant. It concerned only language, and nothing else. Unfortunately, there is just a very little of Khudzul known, as far as I know. In the risk of another off-topic chain, but just as a question, was there any more of Khudzul in Tolkien's work asides from things like Khazad-Dum or the names of the mountains or such?

[Bêthberry]

The standard online reference for Tolkien languages, The Ardalambion, has the fullest Kazdul lexicon and grammar I've ever seen--or at least, did, last time I looked for said info.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

The idea of elves as a highly developed culture originates in Middle-Earth for sure. In the older fairy tales of which I am aware, elves are simply another species of rustic woodland sprite, rather than great craftsmen, loremasters, and artisans.

But what about the whole gnome (who later became the Noldor) thing? I'm sure it says something about him meaning "gnome" (from Greek, I believe) in the knowledgeable sense, and he got that from somewhere (Sadly I have no copy on me right now).

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If I were to say whom I really think close to this, it will be only one person, and that's Tuor, who is personally in contact with one of the Valar (!) and is given a certain task.

But if we go with elves, then I would say that the "prophet" among them would be Cirdan.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But what about the whole gnome (who later became the Noldor) thing? I'm sure it says something about him meaning "gnome" (from Greek, I believe) in the knowledgeable sense, and he got that from somewhere (Sadly I have no copy on me right now).

I think that is based on a convenient similarity between the words "gnome" and "ginoskow" (greek "to know"), rather than an actual etymological connection between the words. Perhaps a bit of academic linguistic cleverness on Tolkien's part than actual scholarship. It's more likely that "gnome" comes from "genomos", which means "earth-dweller" - and Tolkien would have obviously known this.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The thought that dwarvish language was based upon Semitic languages raises some questions as to what else in Tolkien based upon Semitic, or shall we cut to the chase and say Jewish, people. Tolkien's dwarves are bearded, greedy and determined hoarders, which sounds a lot like some racist Jewish stereotypes.

Could someone provide the link to the thread where members were debating whether or not Tolkien's books were racist? After all, he made Southrons swarthy, cruel, riders of elephants, my emphasis on "swarthy".

Tolkien did in fact compare his Dwarves to the Jews occationally. And as the Dwarves do have a weakness for gold I can only assume that T did make use of the old stereotype of Jews beeing greedy hoarders. Then again, all races in ME have their virtues and flaws. Men, for example, are easily swayed by the evil powers whereas the Dwarves in contrast are much more honourable and steadfast.

Here's a quote from Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ where you also can find a brief discussion on other racism charges: (http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/External.html)

One occasional charge is that Tolkien was anti-semitic, presumably because he occasionally compared his Dwarves to Jews. Those comparisons seem to focus on history and language, however: in Letter #176 he says, "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue.....". And he seems to have had a very positive view of the Jewish people in general.

Prior to the second world war Tolkien recieved a letter from the German government asking him to establish his racial purity so they could authorize an official translation of The Hobbit. This is (part of) the answer they recieved:

Thank you for your letter.... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend," he wrote. "I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are inquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people....

Edit: I believe the faulty notion of Vikings wearing horned helmets came from some bungling 19th century museumintendent, who thought it looked cool to match a few drinking vessels made of horn with helmets, or something like that... At least that's what a mate once told me (he studies archeology).

[The Sixth Wizard]

+rep skip spence.

Thanks for settling the matter. I should never have doubted you, Professor Tolkien!

<EDIT> Oh sorry, missed the p in your name...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

+rep skip sence.

Why thank you. Here's another analogy between the Dwarves and the Jews.

You know the scene when Aule lifted his hammer to crush his action figures after being found out by Eru, who of course spared them and gave them the gift of life. Reminds you of something?

God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Why thank you. Here's another analogy between the Dwarves and the Jews.

You know the scene when Aule lifted his hammer to crush his action figures after being found out by Eru, who of course spared them and gave them the gift of life. Reminds you of something?

God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"

Kind of a weak analogy, but I would have done the same just for the sake of quoting Bob Dylan.

[skip spence]

Ah yes... Dylan. The greatest singer since Maglor, son of Feanor.

[Roa_Aoife]

Just adding my two cents:

Almost al of my fellow D&Der's (and I know quite a few) are big Tolkien fans, and the general theory is that First Edition took alot of inspiration from the professor, as did such games as Magic: the Gathering. (You can read direct Tolkien quotes on many of the earlier editions.) Second Edition moved away from Tolkien's influence during the rise of mysticism and similar new religions such as Wicca in the US, and took a darker turn as well. A lot of media was doing this at the time as the youth began to try to break away from the previous generation and a great movement towards the "edgier" began. Third Edition has evolved even further. Admittedly, I haven't seen Fourth Edition, yet.

Other games that have come after have attempted to distinguish themselves from D&D, as fantasy authors have tried to distinguish themselves from Tolkien. Thus, details have been changed regarding the races and the landscape so that each new product appears to actually be new. You could say that even though the images we see are not of Tolkien's design, he is still responsible for them, by the simple fact that he set the standard that everyone is trying to overtake.