Gandalf for President?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

- As an expert on Machiavellenism, you should be able to look up on the matter yourself. I do not wish to derail from the LOTR beyond this. .

I am not an expert on Machiavelli; however, I have read his works (have you?), and am quite aware of the profound and ongoing effect he has had on modern politics. I will take your inability to provide proper citations as an admission that you are unable to do so.

Originally Posted by Mansun

- - Sauron did much more than build an army of orcs and wargs, he built a devastating and unassailable country of immeasurable strength that would stain the land of Mordor and the generations of inhabitants of Middle Earth for eternity.

Sauron also lost nearly every major war he was associated with. So much for strategy. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Mansun

- - In the relative sense, Isengard fell overnight in comparison to the achievements of Mordor.

In a relative sense, Gondor and Rohan are younger than Mordor. We are talking about centuries in any case, and terming something 'overnight' is not the best definition of hundreds of years, even in a relative sense. *shrugs again*

P.S. I notice you added an edit onto last your quote:

Originally Posted by Manusun

Any psychiatrist would link Machiavellianism with such a mental disorder. That is not to say a Machiavelli = mental psychopath.

Nice trying to cover your tracks; however, any psychiatrist could link Christianity, drinking water or collecting stamps to mental disorders (depending on how one manipulates the facts). For instance 100% of murderers breathe; therefore, there is a direct link between breathing and murder. You made an outrageous statement that you cannot back up with direct references. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am not an expert on Machiavelli; however, I have read his works (have you?), and am quite aware of the profound and ongoing effect he has had on modern politics. I will take your inability to provide proper citations as an admission that you are unable to do so.

See updates above.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

See updates above.

Replied in kind above. Again, please cite references, or quit offering your opinions as facts.

P.S. Another late edit found here:

Originally Posted by Mansun

The research paper below is beyond the scope of this argument for the non-scientific community here.

http://www.nswiop.nsw.edu.au/pages/e..._28_Oct_05.pdf

Interestingly, the Machiavellian Scale has nothing to do with a mental disorder, nor is it a test corporations use in qualifying candidates (having administered such employee screening tests, I can tell you corporations are more interested in theft than Machiavellianism); of course, you would understand that if you had read the summation of the paper you cited, which states "is thus far theoretical, and awaits empirical testing". As a matter of fact, anyone can take a "Mach IV Test" to see if they are Machiavellian. Most people fall in the middle of the scale (so even you, Mansun, have quite a bit of Machiavelli in you, I am sure). It is found here:

http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/09/13/machtest/

High Machs constitute a distinct type: charming, confident and glib, but also arrogant, calculating and cynical, prone to manipulate and exploit....
True low Machs, however, can be kind of dependent, submissive and socially inept.

Hmmm...I would not want to be a Low Mach, would you?

Not surprisingly, persons with a High Mach score are neither sociopaths nor psycopaths, and tend to make outstanding politicians and corporate CEO's (it also represents the vast majority of political leaders from the U.S. and Britain for the past couple centuries -- whether you rate them good or bad on your Barometric Indices of Character Habits).

Needless to say the term Machiavellianism in the psychological sense is a convenient name (like Lou Gehrig's disease) to place on a test of people's demeanor.

[Gwathagor]

Hmmm.

The Istari were strictly forbidden to govern or rule over the Children of Illuvatar, and so the holding of a political office such as the presidency would be out of the question for a dutiful wizard like Gandalf. He would probably turn down the presidency if we offered it to him. However, the fact that he would have no aspirations to political power would make him the only safe candidate, as most politicians are exactly the opposite. Because of his unwillingness to play the politics game, and because of his lack of interest in power, he would likely not be elected.

But, if the impossible happened, and Gandalf not only was elected but accepted the presidency, I have no doubt that he would be a wise and just leader.

On another note, P.J.'s team must have seen something of Churchill's position and policies in Gandalf as well, given the wizard's near direct quoting of Winston at the end of TTT (albeit with the locations changed).

[Groin Redbeard]

You make some good points, Gwathagor. Although the Istari aren't allowed to govern people they are allowed to council and advice them. So maybe we should downgrade Gandalf to Secretary of State or Defense. What do you say?

[Gwathagor]

Yes, I'm certain he'd feel more at home on the cabinet.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Gwathagor

Yes, I'm certain he'd feel more at home on the cabinet.

Yes, Gandalf was more of an adviser than a leader, or a general. Not that he wasn't good at both of those as well, but his preference seemed to be behind the scenes, advising the "powers-that-be."

You know, it's funny. you guys almost had me sucked into an actual political discussion, which would probably shut this thread down quicker than Pippin could change his hat. Good thing I held my tongue.

It's funny. This reticence for taking on authority seems to me to be very appealing in a leader. It's too bad so many politicians nowadays actually want the job. There's something evil in that, like Lotho, or Ted Sandyman.