Gandalf for President?

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Saruman was a power deriving freak, not a capable politician. If you used his policies, you are looking at another Hitler situation. Therefore, the thread question asks if Gandalf is the best candidate to take the top job in politics on grounds of ability alone, not by who is obssessed by politics. Gandalf was a far more astitute policy maker and governor of the free people.

But the ability to gain power like that can make a good politician. Power hungry or not Saruman would have made a better politician than Gandalf. Many distrusted Gandalf. The Hobbits found him a disturber of the peace, Grima, with Saruman's help, had Rohan convinced he was Stormcrow, Denethor was never thrilled with his presence. And it didn't bother him. He could be hated as long as he got the job done. As far as politicians go that's not what they want to strive for. Saruman and Sauron are both far superior as politicians. They could bend themselves into looking fair so people would follow them. Being a politician involves getting people to follow and support you, regardless of the ends. Gandalf was unbending in his ways and that makes a poor politician.

Can you give me any examples of what Saruman actually achieved? Building an army of orcs and wargs is an achievement? In my book, anyone who abandons the forces of Good for orcs is weak and is a freak.

He convinced Gandalf not to act on the Ring issue in the Shire. And Gandalf followed as if Saruman was a politician because he trusted Saruman's leadership.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

But the ability to gain power like that can make a good politician. Power hungry or not Saruman would have made a better politician than Gandalf. Many distrusted Gandalf. The Hobbits found him a disturber of the peace, Grima, with Saruman's help, had Rohan convinced he was Stormcrow, Denethor was never thrilled with his presence. And it didn't bother him. He could be hated as long as he got the job done. As far as politicians go that's not what they want to strive for. Saruman and Sauron are both far superior as politicians. They could bend themselves into looking fair so people would follow them. Being a politician involves getting people to follow and support you, regardless of the ends. Gandalf was unbending in his ways and that makes a poor politician.


He convinced Gandalf not to act on the Ring issue in the Shire. And Gandalf followed as if Saruman was a politician because he trusted Saruman's leadership.

You liken deception and persuasion with achievement. Personally, I would not. Gandalf had his doubts on this subject all along.

Ganadlf was not liked, at times, during the war against Sauron. But who ran out as comfortable triumphant at the end, more liked as ever before? Aragorn would have made him the chief advisor to Gondor, if he could.

[Kitanna]

Politics usually are about deception though. It's about getting people to follow you in any way possible regardless of how you do it. Successfully winning people to your side is at the heart of politics. Sauron and Saruman both did that. They successfully convinced many to follow them, giving them the upper hand against those who weren't as skillful at swaying the crowd.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Politics usually are about deception though. It's about getting people to follow you in any way possible regardless of how you do it. Successfully winning people to your side is at the heart of politics. Sauron and Saruman both did that. They successfully convinced many to follow them, giving them the upper hand against those who weren't as skillful at swaying the crowd.

I agree with the above, except the highlighted bit. Using any means necessary in politics leads to extremism and tensions within a state. I prefer perception, not deception. as fundamental in politics.

[Nerwen]

It seems to me that there is a bit of semantical confusion going on here.

I believe Mansun is saying that Gandalf would have made a good politician while others are saying that Saruman would have made (indeed, was) a good politician.

You're talking about two different things.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

It seems to me that there is a bit of semantical confusion going on here.

I believe Mansun is saying that Gandalf would have made a good politician while others are saying that Saruman would have made (indeed, was) a good politician.

You're talking about two different things.

I can see why the confusion started out, but I could not imagine anyone adovcating a vote for Saruman on his record, and amongst other excellent candidates. Gandalf, afterall, was the Steward of Middle Earth, and an astonishingly good one, using ambition with a conscience.

Who would you vote for, Nerwen? I would think it a toss of the coin between Gandalf the White, and Elrond. Sauron and Saruman lose out due to ultimately delivering poor results in the LOTR. In pure political terms though, Sauron probably comes up top.

[Groin Redbeard]

Of course I would vote for Gandalf if he was the only candidate running, but I do believe that others would be more suitable to be President. After all to quote Gandalf: "He is a moss gatherer and I am a stone doomed to rolling." I think that the media would have a field day with this statement and demonize poor Gandalf so that Grima Wormtongue wins the election! Damn the media!!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I can see why the confusion started out, but I could not imagine anyone adovcating a vote for Saruman on his record, and amongst other excellent candidates. Gandalf, afterall, was the Steward of Middle Earth, and an astonishingly good one, using ambition with a conscience.

Who would you vote for, Nerwen? I would think it a toss of the coin between Gandalf the White, and Elrond. Sauron and Saruman lose out due to ultimately delivering poor results in the LOTR. In pure political terms though, Sauron probably comes up top.

If all I had was "public knowledge" on which to base a vote, I'd probably be voting Saruman in the Middle-earth elections.

Now, I realise we all know, after the fact what a sleaze-ball he is... but let's pretend we know as much as Gandalf himself did--right before he got locked up.

Saruman:

-was trusted by Manwë to lead the Istari
-was trusted by the Stewards, good Middle-earth's superpower, to govern Orthanc.
-helped build the White Council, and won its leadership.
-Actually led the White Council to victory over Sauron, kicking him out of Mirkwood.

Never mind that he is clearly marked as the most naturally gifted orator in Middle-earth, though by the time we show up in the pages of the Lord of the Rings, he's stopped talking about anything we should listen to.

So, if you're asking who, as an insider who knows what everyone in Middle-earth is like... I'd say Aragorn.

But if you're asking about who Joe Rohirrim on the streets knows... Saruman has a compelling case.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If all I had was "public knowledge" on which to base a vote, I'd probably be voting Saruman in the Middle-earth elections.

Now, I realise we all know, after the fact what a sleaze-ball he is... but let's pretend we know as much as Gandalf himself did--right before he got locked up.

Saruman:

-was trusted by Manwë to lead the Istari
-was trusted by the Stewards, good Middle-earth's superpower, to govern Orthanc.
-helped build the White Council, and won its leadership.
-Actually led the White Council to victory over Sauron, kicking him out of Mirkwood.

Never mind that he is clearly marked as the most naturally gifted orator in Middle-earth, though by the time we show up in the pages of the Lord of the Rings, he's stopped talking about anything we should listen to.

So, if you're asking who, as an insider who knows what everyone in Middle-earth is like... I'd say Aragorn.

But if you're asking about who Joe Rohirrim on the streets knows... Saruman has a compelling case.

Saruman's record beyond this point goes downhill alarmingly. It is wiser to consider his case through his entire life in the history of Middle Earth up until his death.

I could list quite a few achievements that support Gandalf the White:-

- Advising the masterplan that the Ring be sent to Mordor to be destroyed by a
Hobbit;
- Leading Rohan to victory over Isengard at Helm's Deep;
- Casting down the traitor Saruman from the Order of the Istari;
- Preventing the Witch King from entering Minas Tirith;
- Outwitting Sauron by challenging Mordor at the Black Gate, allowing Frodo time
and space to complete his quest;

In short, Gandalf has the best record for policy making and governing in Middle Earth, although Sauron of course ran him close in almost all matters.

Any votes for the skulking Gollum the Great? Lord Smeagol? I rate him as the most original character ever created.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Aragorn would have made him the chief advisor to Gondor, if he could.

Yep, and I think this is a good thing to point out. I see Gandalf as an advisor, not a leader. He's the behind-the-scenes guy. He manipulates when he needs to, to make sure those who are the leaders, I guess the politicians in this discussion, are doing what they should within a greater plan.

Oh semantics...yes, I think Mansun means 'good politician' as equivalent to 'good leader'?