Tol-in-Gaurhoth XLIX - At the Source of Darkness

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You understand that now I know less than everyone else? The rest of you know at least two innocents.

That is a good point to keep in mind. But at the same time at least we know we can trust that you aren't slanting your thoughts and reads on people with misleading intent. So while we cannot necessarily trust your conclusions, we can trust your thoughts.

I've been inclined to believe him innocent throughout the game, but that's partly because he seems to think along the same lines as me. As he says himself, he's probably clever enough to guess what I'm thinking and fake it.

Heh heh. While that may be true, you can hardly say that I guessed about you and faked it after the fact on those events that I already explained before your reveal. For instance the whole Fea-Mith incident. I called that for what it was days before you revealed as the trusted Assassin.

I need to look over their interactions.

Yeah, I've been trying to look at possible partnerships, but I'm getting rather stumped there. The fact is you can spin something many different ways. I pointed out yesterday how Shasta had basically no links to anyone in the entire village except me. Then after that he came up with a list. I mean, it's hard to gain anything interaction-wise from that.

And if two people kind of ignore each other are they doing it to distance themselves, or when two people go after each other are they doing it to distance themselves? It can work both ways.

I'm done reading for right now, though. I've got to get ready for bed. I must be rested up for a whole weekend of backyard BBQs. Don't ya just love Labor Day weekend?

[Thinlómien]

First off, some relatives came here over the weekend so I can't participate as much as I would like to be. But I will do my best to be around more than just a little, seeing as this could be (is?) a crucial Day.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Jumping on the Fea-wagon Day 3 seemed suspicious to me, seeing as the rather obvious Form-Cobbler was the other option.

Yeah, but I wasn't sure he was a cobbler and I thought that if he was, he could be left to the Assassin.

Originally Posted by tp

But I don't like that she ran ahead and lynched her dad when he was sounding more and more innocent to me as the clock ran down. Surely she knows him better than I?

Really, no. I hate it that when people assume I should know my dad/sister/best friend in ww games. I really don't. In fact, they tend to be the best at fooling me.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Your Friendly Neighbourhood Assassin.

Thank you, Nerwie. I just became a little more hopeful. You see, this must be the first thing I have guessed correctly in this game...

Originally Posted by Durelin

Right now I feel Kath is the most wolfish, but I don't know... A very quiet Kath is normally a wolf, right?

Now that I think of it: a very quiet Kath = an evil Kath or a busy Kath. I don't know which one is this one...

Originally Posted by tp

I'm just trying to give my reasons for why I am able to have a certain level of suspicion for everyone. Meh- badly explained.

Now doesn't this sound like: "I'm just trying to give my reasons for why I could jump on any vote in order to win this game as a wolf"? But, yeah, I can understand his feelings. At this phase, I'm pretty paranoid too.

I don't really like this semi-consesus, but... I think Durelin looks the least guilty after myself and Nerwen. She sounds sincere enough and her attacks against Nogrod seem a tad too bold for a wolf. Kath, on the other hand, is probably a wolf, because she seems indeed rather fishy. Her fellow is then Shasta or tp, which one, I don't know. If I had to bet, I'd say Shasta, but I don't really know. Could be either. I haven't ruled out the possibility of a Shasta-tp duo, but you know, if they're wolves together, maybe they even deserve to win for giving us such a great show? Aieee, I don't really know. Maybe I too will look for partnerships. Maybe that would help. Because the only connection I can remember is how Shasta and tp treat each other - a rather peculiar connection - but I'm not sure what to make of it. Maybe another whole village reread would do good for me... if I just have time.

Wolves, please, would you help us a little and start doing something very suspicious...? You know, you can afford that, you've fooled us quite well this far...

But hey, folks, we can always take this Day as a great challenge. I, for one, enjoy them...

[Nerwen]

Here's everything Kath has said this game, in one convenient, easy-to-read post (minus some emoticons):

Kath, Day Two.

Originally Posted by Kath

Well, now I've got my brain in gear, hello! Just posting to let you know I am actually around toDay because I need to disappear and post for an RPG quickly and then I'll be back with you.

Originally Posted by Kath

I know that many of you hate it when I do this but as I saw nothing of yesterDay I need to get my thoughts in order which means, yes, a list. Though it's really a 'find the odd things' list so will appear completely biased.

Nog - rather pointless so far, and what's with that 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 list in which everything useful in it could be said in one paragraph making it much easier to read?! Don't know whether he was trying to be warning or inflammatory with that narration quote about the cobblers, the fact that it specifically said it was too dark for them to see each other seemed obvious. My suspicion would be that right now they can't see each other ... but perhaps if they're left alive long enough they will eventually be told who the others are, thus making them a 'better' enemy.

phantom - I am intrigued by the niceness of his first post. But as I'm ill equipped to deal with two Werewolves all on my own, it is currently in my best interest to work with you guys to lynch them. Does that really sound like the phantom we all know?

Durelin - a little bit of stating the obvious.

Eonwe -

Gwath -

Form -

Lalaith -

Groin - says to beware of those who are very loud, after mentioning at the beginning of his post that he is quiet.

Nerwen -

Shasta -

Brinn -

Lommy - 'two wolves are easy to find' is an interesting thing to say, I would have thought the fewer wolves there are the harder they are to find.

Mith -

Nilp -

Greenie -

One thing I will say outside all this. Don't underestimate a Cobbler. Alright, so my experience with them is very different to most as I owe my win in one game to a very impressive Cobbler attack, but that just proves the point. The wolves are the main target it's agreed, but the Cobblers may not be as unthreatening as some people seem to think.

Gah, I have to go out, this is as far as I've got which is why it looks quite so unfinished. I'm at post 60 of Day 1 at the moment, I'll finish it off when I get back.

Originally Posted by Kath

Oh, well I was going to do Day 2 but due to a misunderstanding I have no dinner and so must go and get myself some and then I'm leaving for some socialising. Therefore I have to vote now:

++LOMMY

I have little reasoning for any of those I found suspicious yesterday but I have been keeping up with the thread toDay. She was really quite overly cross I think at an early point and while she hasn't dropped her suspicion of Nogrod it hasn't been mentioned except in one post unlike yesterDay when she was quite vocal about it. I admit it was a close run thing between her and Nog but then I always, always find Nog suspicious so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

Day Three.

Originally Posted by Kath

Right, quick post before I disappear for a few hours because we have people visiting.

Fea - the rule has always been that so long as the number of Cobblers doesn't equal the number of innocents the village wins.

Also, on Gwath, I think he dreamt of phantom and found him wolvish. He might also have dreamt of Fea. Though he did add that 'if' statement to indicate being unsure it's the most concrete thing we had from him apart from those two Innocent coments which are odd. If Gwath thought through (or noticed) the caveat that Cobblers would appear as innocents in the narration then no way can the Innocent bits mean anything. If not then yeah, he dreamt of those he called Innocent. I can't believe though that our Seer would fail to notice this, so I'm going with my original assumption.

Truly, this is not just me going 'oh it's the phantom, let's kill him', which I admit is my usual reaction to him playing. He hasn't annoyed me in any way, his overbearingness has actually seemed less overt than usual, he's been a nicer guy than I'm used to. I doubt he's simply mellowed, ergo he's a wolf. Well, that's my reasoning anyway. But really, who are you going to dream of as a Seer when you have phantom and Fea, masters at playing you for a fool? Thought so.

Originally Posted by Kath

Oh go on then, lynch me.

Nah don't, I'm having a rather nice time. Been a while since I've lived, perhaps I'm high on the experience. Anyway, phantom, I never said that Gwath was stupid, I don't believe that's true, I was in fact defending him against those who said he'd list people he'd dreamt of as Innocent. As to him dreaming of two wolves and not saying anything, ok, I didn't think that through. But in that case, you're a wolf and he hadn't yet dreamt of Fea - sorted.

If this is annoying you then you have my apologies, I seem to have no desire to play in my usual style, it's so boring.

Day 4

Originally Posted by Kath

Brinn, Nog and Lommy started a very late bandwagon against Fea yesterday. I had wondered where it had come from when I discovered she'd be lynched. They're going on and on about not having a flurry of last minute voting and bandwagons and there they go and do the exact same thing. I don't think they're suspicious for voting for her, she was second on my list, but I think the manner of it most odd.

Ah, and to answer something from Nog yesterDay. Just because I'm not suspecting you doesn't mean anything. With phantom, Fea and Nilp in the game you barely got my attention in terms of automatic suspicion. Now, however, after yesterDay, you've got it. Brinn too actually, more so than Lommy for some reason though I'm not sure why.

Originally Posted by Kath

Durelin, I'm quite pleased that you think my posts usually contain anything helpful. Generally I get condemned for merely analysing. I am playing a different style and it is far more fun. Clearly not very accurate though as I was totally wrong on Fea. However, given that, I still think our main suspects must lie in the last minute flurry of voting that ended up with her death. That's not to say though that they must be those who voted for her. I think it's likely, but there were others there.

Now, you can probably see where I'm going with this and that's back to phantom. I see I have an ally here in Shasta, but I wish I didn't because his arguments and reasoning are just bizarre. phantom wanted to save Fea, hardly a surprise. To save Fea he voted Form, again not a surprise as he's insisted Form is a cobbler for some time. I don't understand what Shasta has taken from this. What I take from it is that phantom played a very nice double blind and is a wolf.

Apart from all that Nog is firmly on my radar now. Going back over the voting I found that quote in which he basically says 'tell me who to vote for' and also, in saying he might be willing to lynch Fea, made a bandwagon more likely. I'm not sure though whether he'd be wolf or cobbler.

That's what I'm thinking right now. I may have to vote a little early and if I do it will be for one of those two.

Originally Posted by Kath

Alright, I need to vote now.

++NOGROD

I was determined that it was to be phantom but he just has to go and make a reasonable point. I'm going to look at that Mith thing very, very carefully.

Day Five.

Originally Posted by Kath

I don't have much to say right now as I'm falling asleep but I'm beginning to think that I should start voting against my own suspicions as they're clearly so utterly wrong. That said, Greenie had gone unnoticed by me and turned out to be evil, so I'm thinking of looking at who I haven't really paid much attention to and actually doing so. This new way of playing is fun but it's not actuall doing anyone any good so maybe I'll go back to the old way for a Day and try to be of some real help.

Originally Posted by Kath

I'm very sorry, I intended to be around for much more of the Day but it ran away from me and now I have to go fetch my sister from karate in about 10 minutes and will therefore miss the deadline.

But, now, I'm going to concentrate here and try to really work out what I'm feeling about each person. Not based on specific quotes or anything but just what I've got from seeing their posts as I read through.

Shasta - well I can sort of see phantom's point about him not really ... being there I suppose. I mean there are plenty of posts but not much if the way of things that drag him into the limelight, at least apart from his battle with phantom. However, the fact that he is at least consistent with that suspicion makes me feel more secure with him. Or at least it would if that wasn't a trick I've employed on more than one occasion.

Eonwe - I just don't know. I can't, it's like, I mean I have paid attention to him and I've read his posts and on occasion I've thought 'hmm, good point' but he's a master at flying under the radar.

Nerwen - the fact that I have little opinion on her is what worries me the most here. Nerwen quiet? I don't believe it. I'm beginning to think though that we have quiet wolves. I mean why not? If you know the Cobblers are in the village taking the suspicion for you. I have a feeling though that some of that is RL-related, plus she was her normal argumentative self toDay.

Durelin - did come over as a very frustrated innocent, but there was a post by here early today, basically a 'this is why I'm not evil' post and the end of that really caught my attention and suspicion. A pre-defence wasn't necessary, no one has put any real pressure on her, so I wasn't keen on that.

Brinn - ah Brinn! What to do here? I read one post and think she's innocent, I read another and think she's guilty as hell. And I can't decide which. It makes me think she might be Cobbler rather than wolf but it does make me think she's evil.

phantom - he's evil damn it! Except of course that he's probably not. It's a terrible thing to admit to but I would quite happily lynch him for the pleasure of ridding myself of the unsurety. I'm still thinking over that point he made about Mith. The problem is that while it makes perfect sense I still believe him capable of finding a way around it.

Lommy - again comes across wrong somehow. Though I'm really not sure about this one as I don't know where that feeling has come from. I would have to take a proper look at her I think. Hmm actually I know what it is, she hasn't really come to a conclusion on anyone. I'm not sure it's doing us much good coming to a consensus as we've not managed to lynch a baddie yet, but she's just refusing to commit. Except for Nerwen - interesting that as there's no reasoning.

Hmm, so right now I think I'd want to lynch everyone. Mostly I want to lynch phantom but I sincerely doubt I'm going to get any support there as it is an entirely unfounded suspicion. Behind that it's a fair tie between Lommy, Nerwen and Brinn.

++LOMMY

Because this isn't the first time this game she's popped up as suspicious to me. Maybe I should stick with my early suspicions. We'll see.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by phantom

I can only assume that the WWs had reason to suspect Brin of being the Assassin.

Oh. Yeah. Her and Nerwen actually seemed kinda the most likely assassins to me yesterDay, which meant I went quiet back and forth about them. But then Nerwen said a couple things yesterDay that made me think she was more likely the assassin... And yes, I'm going to ignore the comment about me killing Brinn.

Ooh, thanks Nerwen, that's awesome.

The things I find most interesting are Kath's comments on Gwath and who he might have dreamt of. Those were really very strange. They made little sense but put forward a couple names as wolves: phantom and Fea. Fea we know was innocent.

The whole "oh go on then, lynch me" thing...part of her 'new playing style?'

Her comments on that make me wonder if she was trying to look like a cobbler.

Originally Posted by Kath

If this is annoying you then you have my apologies, I seem to have no desire to play in my usual style, it's so boring.

This was at the end of her *defense of her Gwath comments*. Did her suggestions about who Gwath dreamt of really have anythign to do with her playing style? But I think that comment succeeded and backing people off of her.

Originally Posted by Kath

Truly, this is not just me going 'oh it's the phantom, let's kill him', which I admit is my usual reaction to him playing.

Is that true?

Originally Posted by Kath

But really, who are you going to dream of as a Seer when you have phantom and Fea, masters at playing you for a fool? Thought so.

Why would she say that?

In her second post on Day 4, Kath points to the late Fea voters (except for me for some reason!), but also points again to phantom. She starts out with the Fea bandwagon, then talks about something like "not just those who voted for her, but others there"...to segway into talking about phantom.

Originally Posted by Kath

I still think our main suspects must lie in the last minute flurry of voting that ended up with her death. That's not to say though that they must be those who voted for her. I think it's likely, but there were others there.

Okay...so she says it's likely both wolves were in the Fea voters but she talks the most about phantom. She tosses in Nog, too, thouigh. Of course she's pick Nog, as that'd be the second vote for him. *...sigh*

Originally Posted by Kath

I was determined that it was to be phantom but he just has to go and make a reasonable point.

Or I had to go and vote for Nog?

Originally Posted by Kath

I'm beginning to think though that we have quiet wolves. I mean why not? If you know the Cobblers are in the village taking the suspicion for you.

Yes, good point... *coughs*

So she goes after Lommy again, for consistency's sake? To stay safely out of things?

Connections between her and Shasta...phantom. She's quite a bit lighter on the phantom-suspecting (she never votes for him for one thing), but she seems to try and quietly cultivate *fear* of him. Or she's trying to make little jabs every so often at a fellow wolf. Would Kath and Shatsa decide they would both try to keep phantom as some creepy entity? I guess if you are stuck not killing him because you're trying to get the cobbler assassin?

Ugh, feeling crappy...will be back...

[the phantom]

Okay, I'm awake. Wow, and it's only 10:30. That's early for a Saturday.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Really, no. I hate it that when people assume I should know my dad/sister/best friend in ww games. I really don't. In fact, they tend to be the best at fooling me.

Yes, yes, you said that in the last game as well. I think my issue with you lynching Daddy-dearest goes beyond just you though. Game after game after game I can't tell you how often someone will be under the gun like Nog and start flailing around a bit and everyone seems to think it makes them more likely to be guilty. Where as me- I quite often come away with the opposite impression, and more often than not they are indeed innocent. I just don't understand why thrashing about makes one look guilty. Why would an Ordo want to die?

But that's a very old debate. SPM and I had it out more than once over that issue.

Well, we now have all of Kath's words in one easy to read post. Nerwen, do you think you could do that for my posts too? Oh, come on. Please.

Originally Posted by Dur quoting Kath

Truly, this is not just me going 'oh it's the phantom, let's kill him', which I admit is my usual reaction to him playing.

Originally Posted by Dur

Is that true?

I think it kind of is. I think both of us are usually uneasy with each other. I find her a little more difficult to read than the really loud players because she reacts/responds to less things. And she probably always has the urge to kill me because, well, I'm me.

Maybe I should skim a couple of her old games. Just fyi, I'm going to be leaving for lunch pretty soon, but I should be back for the final two hours or so.

[Nerwen]

And Kath's another one who still looks more like a cobbler than anything.

Here's another conspiracy theory: Kath and the phantom. See how she makes unconvincing attacks on him, then votes other people? And– as with Shasta– he conveniently dismisses her as a cobbler.


But I was going to look at Shasta and Kath.

This is everything Kath says about Shasta:

I see I have an ally here in Shasta, but I wish I didn't because his arguments and reasoning are just bizarre. phantom wanted to save Fea, hardly a surprise. To save Fea he voted Form, again not a surprise as he's insisted Form is a cobbler for some time. I don't understand what Shasta has taken from this.

(part of a list) Shasta - well I can sort of see phantom's point about him not really ... being there I suppose. I mean there are plenty of posts but not much if the way of things that drag him into the limelight, at least apart from his battle with phantom. However, the fact that he is at least consistent with that suspicion makes me feel more secure with him. Or at least it would if that wasn't a trick I've employed on more than one occasion.

And Shasta on Kath:

(part of a list) Kath seems off to me... I'm not sure I'd lycanize her, but she could easily be a shoemaker.

*shrugs* There's nothing to say they're allies, and nothing to say they're not. The way they've avoided mentioning each other except in passing could mean something... except that of course Shasta hasn't interacted with anyone except the phantom!

EDIT: fixed quotes
EDIT2: X'd with Durelin and the phantom.

[Kath]

What Day are we on? Day 6? Well then, it all makes sense. When it comes to this point in the game I'm always lynched. I won't defend myself overly. I will say that I am innocent and therefore lynching me is a very, very bad plan. If you have any specific questions you want me to answer I will, but please post them before 8 as I will have to leave around half 8 (it's hop festival time here so I'll be in the pub ).

So, if I assume Nerwen is telling the truth then the wolves lie somewhere in this list:

Shasta
Durelin
phantom
Lommy

And I just do not know who is evil. You all look incredibly suspicious, with the possible exception of Durelin who for some reason has felt innocent to me all game. If I had to pick right now who is wolvish I would say it's phantom and Lommy, but that's gut feeling alone. I'll have a think about this.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kath

What Day are we on? Day 6? Well then, it all makes sense. When it comes to this point in the game I'm always lynched. I won't defend myself overly. I will say that I am innocent and therefore lynching me is a very, very bad plan. If you have any specific questions you want me to answer I will, but please post them before 8 as I will have to leave around half 8 (it's hop festival time here so I'll be in the pub ).

Okay. Kath, if you're innocent you owe it to the village to put up a much better defence than this. If we lynch the wrong person now, it's game over.

Well?

[Kath]

I can't do much more than tell you you're lynching the wrong person. I'm not evil, I never was. Tell me why you think I'm evil, I'll tell you that I'm not. What else can I do?

I have been pressed for time and disinclined to play seriously, that will be the reason behind almost anything that looks suspicious in my behaviour. Quite simply, were I anything of any consequence I would not have played in such a blase fashion. Even if others use it as a ploy I'd have been too scared of getting lynched for it, I'm not a confident wolf.

There you go, that's my defense. Two evil people, three innocents. Nerwen, if you accept that I am innocent we have a much higher chance of getting a wolf toDay and giving ourselves a chance.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

*shrugs* There's nothing to say they're allies, and nothing to say they're not.

Yeah, that's what I mean about the interaction aspect. I'm not going to try and find two WWs today. I'm going to try and find one single WW and if we're right then I will take another look at interactions and see if anyone is implicated. The interactions themselves are too spotty to use to catch the pair before either has been discovered.

except that of course Shasta hasn't interacted with anyone except the phantom!

Yeah, which seems super weird. I can't recall ever seeing anything like it. That's why even when I feared he was the Cobbler or Assassin I still almost wanted to lynch him. I felt like he was using me or something. I mean, I think several people now have put forward the Phantom-Shasta idea, and perhaps that's precisely what he was going for? Hooking himself to an innocent rather than his fellow? I did something similar last time I was a WW, but in a different way of course.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Kath

I have been pressed for time and disinclined to play seriously, that will be the reason behind almost anything that looks suspicious in my behaviour.

Now this is difficult. On one hand, if she's innocent then she is completely correct. Such an approach would result in looking suspicious. On the other hand it's a rather convenient excuse to explain away any bit of false reasoning, bad choices, flip-flopping, or anything wrong you could ever possibly do in a village. I really don't know what to think.

Though naturally I disagree with you placing me as a WW. I think I've worked as hard as anyone to lynch the suspicious. And when I thought I'd spotted the Seer I attempted to keep her hidden and play along with her. If you are truly innocent, I would advise against suspecting me. If you are a WW, then of course you are doing precisely what you should be doing.

[Nerwen]

No. Post #596.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

First off, some relatives came here over the weekend so I can't participate as much as I would like to be.

EDIT: X'd with Durelin. I was replying to Kath.

[Kath]

Ah ok, no I didn't see that Lommy. But did you really have to be quite so defensive about it?

Right I'm going to be leaving in the next 5-10 minutes. Durelin has given her voting options, clearly I don't want to vote for her first option, and I would rather not vote for the latter. But it is really only me and Shasta that are up for the noose?

[Durelin]

Well, you haven't managed to convince me to vote for anyone else, Kath, sorry.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kath

Ah ok, no I didn't see that Lommy. But did you really have to be quite so defensive about it?

Yeah, I thought you probably didn't. I just wondered why... And if I was being defensive, well, that was not intentional.

Originally Posted by Kath

But it is really only me and Shasta that are up for the noose?

Well, I could vote for tp too. I'd feel most secure about voting you, though.


edit: xed with Durelin I and Durelin II
edit2 - marked quotes

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Why not Shasta? Well, he hasn't been around to make me suspicious of himself... I wonder if that's what he's trying to achieve...

Yes, and that's why I feel that I don't want him to get away with it. Give Kath her credit, Lommy. She showed up and talked.

Or are you going to allow Shasta to run in here at the end and save himself? That's possibly exactly what he's waiting for. Wait till crunch time and run in and apologize and make a plea.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Yes, and that's why I feel that I don't want him to get away with it. Give Kath her credit, Lommy. She showed up and talked.

Or are you going to allow Shasta to run in here at the end and save himself? That's possibly exactly what he's waiting for. Wait till crunch time and run in and apologize and make a plea.

Well, I am giving Kath credit for being around, certainly. But she still seems suspicious... *grumblegrumble* And in case I didn't phrase it clear enough, voting Shasta is an option of me, even though I am currently slightly more suspicious of Kath and you. If Shasta is not going to be around to make me get an impression of him, maybe I just have to go and read his old posts to get some kind of impression...

[the phantom]

Okay, here's what I'm thinking. I'm no longer feeling like I'm being tricked into voting Shasta. I mean- who's pushing me towards it? I feel like I'm the one driving the bus, which makes me feel slightly better.

When Durelin was under the gun with Nog she came off innocent to me. Kath has seemed innocent today. Lommy hasn't pinged my radar much.

Yes, yes, I know... One of them has to be a WW! But two of them? It's possible, but I'd like to think that my instincts are slightly better than that.