Are Orcs That Bad?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Tolkien hints that by the standards of Elves and Men, orcs might have become "irredeemable," yet the Valar (and Eru) may see it differently. But I think you have to ask, how can Orcs become "redeemed" in a society (of Elves and Men) that believe, by their own standards, are irredeemable?

Tolkien's societal norms are static, unchanging for ages (one of the few real dislikes I have for the overall tale); ergo, there is little chance for attitudinal changes within societies regarding those of another race (Elves of Lorien still holding a centuries-old grudge against the Dwarves, for instance). I guess what one would have to really ask is, given the static nature of societies (Orcs included), does it seem likely that such redemption could take place? The answer would be no, given the information we have.

Tolkien societies are not like those of the antebellum South and North United States, where negroes were considered chattel and not-human or subhuman in the South, but with a growing abolitionist movement in the North that fought against the inhumane and reactionary policies of slavery.

I don't see a Gondorion Orkish Abolition League (GOAL) for the better treatment of Orks being started up anytime soon.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien societies are not like those of the antebellum South and North United States, where negroes were considered chattel and not-human or subhuman in the South, but with a growing abolitionist movement in the North that fought against the inhumane and reactionary policies of slavery.

I don't see a Gondorion Orkish Abolition League (GOAL) for the better treatment of Orks being started up anytime soon.

That reminds me of one thing about the Uruk Hai I've never seen any artists or film-makers take up on: they are often described as being black.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien's societal norms are static, unchanging for ages (one of the few real dislikes I have for the overall tale); ergo, there is little chance for attitudinal changes within societies regarding those of another race (Elves of Lorien still holding a centuries-old grudge against the Dwarves, for instance). I guess what one would have to really ask is, given the static nature of societies (Orcs included), does it seem likely that such redemption could take place? The answer would be no, given the information we have.

Well... actually the thing you mentioned with the Lórien Elves made me think of a possible hope for the Orcs. The Elves held a grudge against the Dwarves, but when Gimli came with the Fellowship, and Galadriel approved letting him in, and later, it became kind of first spark of the friendship between the Elves of Lórien and the Dwarves. Maybe had something similar happened with an Orc...? I am inclined to think at least Galadriel would be able to think favourably about him. Had there been a company of Elf-friends who would happen to take an Orc with them - which is not that impossible to think, that there will be at least a few folks, for example including Gandalf, who would get friendly with some Orc, let's say a fostered one or whatever - and a similar situation occured, I think that would be a nice new beginning for inter-racial relationships.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien's societal norms are static, unchanging for ages (one of the few real dislikes I have for the overall tale); ergo, there is little chance for attitudinal changes within societies regarding those of another race (Elves of Lorien still holding a centuries-old grudge against the Dwarves, for instance). I guess what one would have to really ask is, given the static nature of societies (Orcs included), does it seem likely that such redemption could take place? The answer would be no, given the information we have.

But isn't the staticness partly because elves are immortal (Men change alliances at certain times). If everyone around you has lived through a war against the orcs, and tells you how disgusting and cruel they are (first hand account) and what the did to Jimbobaurë, etc, then you would have something aggainst them too. Things are much less easily forgotten by elves because of their immortality. Think about- Cirdan has lived through probably all the torments of the Elves and Men, and would have a good cause to oppose orcs. He can go on telling people about the evilness lf orcs for 3+ ages. That must have an effect (or rather, lower the likelihood of change). If you are brought up in an orc-hating society, with people that have actually seen their horrors, then there is not much chance of change.

Likewise Morgoth, then Sauron, constantly drive their orcs against the "goodies". The ircs don't stand a chance. They give in to what (by the marvels of genetic engineering) their impulses are, having no regard for social harmony, and are taught to enjoy torturing. It's quite hard to escape from such a totalitarian system, when your leader is a powerful god. Not to mention he can read your mind.

Dwarves are a mostly cut-off people from the outside world (they keep to themselves), so their thoughts stagnate within their tunnels. Not to mention the many attacks on them by "goblins".

Men, on the other hand, are different. Having a short lifespan compared to dwarves and elves, things are forgotten much more quickly. Their alliances do fluctuate.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Men, on the other hand, are different. Having a short lifespan compared to dwarves and elves, things are forgotten much more quickly. Their alliances do fluctuate.

These last sentences actually hold something in it. That's also what I thought, then, that after the Elves left Middle-Earth and the Dominion of Men came, it would be much more likely for the Men and Orcs to become friendly at some times, points, moments? And then also, another thought, it sure wasn't that bad with Man-Orc relationships - although they may not have been best friends, in many battles for example the Haradrim or Easterlings and the Orcs fought alongside each other, and in some places they lived next to each other. Their relationships probably were not ideal, of course, but it at least wasn't like that every Orc was an enemy on sight - and sure the long-time living together must have brought at least several good inter-racial friendships, if even to a limited number of people... so in a paradox, the grounds for better Orc-Man relationships were not actually in the "good post-Númenorean civilisation" but among the Men from the East and South... and now, when I think of the possible half-Orc crossbreeds... hmm... (ah yes, now I remember, I think I wrote something about Uglúkromeo&Juliet on that old thread about Orcs back then...)

[Thinlómien]

I'm glad I decided to read through this thread after all... very interesting and thought-provoking. I won't stay here to write a novel, though, because I have dozens of other things to do today, unfortunately. However, I will say one thing. Some people have complained that in the Silmarillion, Orcs are merely cannon fodder, while they are more like real enemy soldiers in LotR. I don't think the difference is in how Orcs were in different ages, or not that much even in how their opponents were in different ages, but rather, in the difference of the narrative of the two books. Silmarillion's style is far more epic and mythology-like, and in all old myths and tales we have the heroes defeating unnumbered hordes of enemies. I think it's as simple as that.

[Lalwendë]

I've just finished reading Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go and it has given me a dreadful thought about the Orcs...

Never Let Me Go deals with cloned people raised for the sole purpose of donating their organs (this won't spoil the plot for you, do not worry!). As you read the novel you notice that there are lots of cliches used in the voice of the narrator and as it moves on you realise why, and that is these people have been raised to have limited expectations, focussed on the job they are destined to do, to be harvested - the limited language reflects the limited expectations. Nobody rebels, though they have small hopes in their limited way, they even hurry more quickly along the path to being harvested. They have their purpose and (maddeningly to the reader) seem to accept it.

That we see no Orcs rebel and refuse to be the mere cannon fodder of Sauron and Morgoth suggests to me that they too have been raised to expect nothing else. Even the hopes of Shagrat and Gorbag are small ones, simply involving more of the same but without a master.

Orcs have had their 'humanity' stripped away and are utilitarian beings bred and raised for a purpose (I'm shuddering to think now of the millions of real children being 'educated' to become the obedient desk jockeys and consumers of the future....). I feel sorry for them at the same time as feeling a wee bit superior because I wasn't just bred to be some Dark Lord's slave.

I think this might be how Tolkien gets them to 'work' as an enemy force. Yes, they are a bit rubbish compared to ruthless hyper-intelligent enemies like Daleks and Ubermenschen like Cybermen, but they are almost shadow selves of humanity, what we can be if we allow our 'masters' to determine our fates. Maybe this is what makes them so scary - are they repulsive as they are almost-but-not-quite-human, and a reminder of what might be? And also repulsive because we cannot reconcile feeling sorry for their fates at the same time as not wanting them to exist?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Never Let Me Go deals with cloned people raised for the sole purpose of donating their organs (this won't spoil the plot for you, do not worry!). As you read the novel you notice that there are lots of cliches used in the voice of the narrator and as it moves on you realise why, and that is these people have been raised to have limited expectations, focussed on the job they are destined to do, to be harvested - the limited language reflects the limited expectations. Nobody rebels, though they have small hopes in their limited way, they even hurry more quickly along the path to being harvested. They have their purpose and (maddeningly to the reader) seem to accept it.

Although they are not harvested, this sounds a bit like the future humans trapped within the caste system of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (genetically bred and raised from birth to be in on one of three levels of workers).

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Orcs have had their 'humanity' stripped away and are utilitarian beings bred and raised for a purpose (I'm shuddering to think now of the millions of real children being 'educated' to become the obedient desk jockeys and consumers of the future....). I feel sorry for them at the same time as feeling a wee bit superior because I wasn't just bred to be some Dark Lord's slave.

I think this might be how Tolkien gets them to 'work' as an enemy force. Yes, they are a bit rubbish compared to ruthless hyper-intelligent enemies like Daleks and Ubermenschen like Cybermen, but they are almost shadow selves of humanity, what we can be if we allow our 'masters' to determine our fates. Maybe this is what makes them so scary - are they repulsive as they are almost-but-not-quite-human, and a reminder of what might be? And also repulsive because we cannot reconcile feeling sorry for their fates at the same time as not wanting them to exist?

The scenario is certainly possible within the framework of humanity, and without any exotic genetic manipulation. People generally have a flock or mob mentality in any case. How else could one explain how easily simple Nazi soldiers could so easily work within the framework of the Final Solution, day in and day out working among the incinerators? Or Japanese suicide bombers (or the Al Queda suicide bombers, or Republicans who still maintain that Bush is a good president, etc.).

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Although they are not harvested, this sounds a bit like the future humans trapped within the caste system of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (genetically bred and raised from birth to be in on one of three levels of workers).

That's a huge favourite of mine. In contrast, the events in this novel seem to be set in near contemporary England. Little detail is given of how they come into being, except dark hints at things far more unpleasant than what we see in the novel. It's well worth reading - difficult to initially get into the rhythm of the narrator's voice though as she intentionally speaks in cliches. The banality of her tone is part of the horror of it...

The scenario is certainly possible within the framework of humanity, and without any exotic genetic manipulation. People generally have a flock or mob mentality in any case. How else could one explain how easily simple Nazi soldiers could so easily work within the framework of the Final Solution, day in and day out working among the incinerators? Or Japanese suicide bombers (or the Al Queda suicide bombers, or Republicans who still maintain that Bush is a good president, etc.).

People are easily persuaded. From reading how these characters accept their fate stoically, how some even hasten it, it's easy to see how just from the correct application of education a person can be made to accept almost anything. Rather than exploring the wilder edges of such 'science' as was available to him, maybe Morgoth simply raised his Orcs to think in a certain way?

As Tolkien says, there are Orcs around even today, people who have not necessarily been raised in the right way (or who have been raised in the wrong way, seeing as there may not be a 'right' way but there are certainly 'wrong' ways). Or maybe it's going too far to say Orcs were more a state of mind in Middle-earth However, rather than thinking of Orcs as naturally 'bad to the bone', it is actually more frightening to think of them as having been raised to be blood thirsty and vicious, brought up in a culture which demanded that of them. It makes them a more satisfying enemy than mere 'McEeeevil' stereotypes, to see them as humanity's dark side.