Are Orcs That Bad?

[Lalwendë]

You know what? I'm sure that the plug-ugly Orcs we saw in the films have made us all think that Orcs resembled re-animated corpses or something, when they were probably just a bit ugly. I must look this up and see what I think...

Because it's something on the inside of an Orc that makes them nasty.

Originally Posted by Skip

The bright side of humanity is that once in a while we manage to rise above it, despite overwhelming odds. I'd like to think that eventually even the Orcs did. But then they are no longer Orcs, as I believe Orcness is mainly a state of mind for Tolkien, given his talk about modern day Orcs. An Orc reformed is no longer an Orc.

And they must have been able to do this or otherwise Tolkien would not have mentioned the possibility of redemption for them. So they had the chance of free will. The question is how much of the urge to seek freedom had been bred out of them in their raising and in their culture.

I also wonder whether a redeemed Orc might look quite so ugly? It's not easy to imagine one of PJ's re-animated corpse zombie Orcs being redeemed and sitting in Ithilien pressing flowers but it might not be so unimaginable if that Orc wasn't such a pig, eh?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly, Sauron was not able to exert the same power over Orcs with his Ring. There is the instance of Shagrat and Gorbag speaking what amounts to heresy against their superiors, and planning their own little soiree without Sauron's control; also, the orcs of Moria had a history of crowning their own king (Azog and Bolg), which seems to be contrary to Orcs being bound directly to the Dark Lord. They even managed their own wars without the seeming direct influence of Saurons (Orcs and Dwarves, and the Battle of Five Armies). Perhaps this was due to Gundabad and Moria being further from Mordor, and the power exerted by Sauron's Ring grew less over considerable distance (unlike Morgoth, whose power corrupted the very earth).

Wasn't much of that period a time when Sauron had lost much of his power? He only came to Dol Guldur 1,000 years into the third age, and back to Mordor much later than that. I think maybe that the loss of Sauron's Ring meant he had to spend much longer in marshalling his forces and extending his influence before he could once more assault the West. Contrast that with the speed with which he must have acted to marshall his troops between the fall of Numenor and the Last Alliance, a time when he was in possession of the Ring.

I reckon Orcs would have taken the chance to run amok (as it might have seen from Sauron's point of view) during that period, be independent, even form an Orcish monarchy in Moria.

A people who had been born and brought up to act in a certain way might find it very hard or even impossible to shake off the yoke that Morgoth had placed on them. Odd cultural traditions persist in the real world for years after they have ceased to serve any useful purpose, such as foot binding, or even the wearing of ties.

I'd like to explore more of these ideas about a 'Cult of Morgoth' though, might be a good thread at some time soon...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

You know what? I'm sure that the plug-ugly Orcs we saw in the films have made us all think that Orcs resembled re-animated corpses or something, when they were probably just a bit ugly. I must look this up and see what I think...

Because it's something on the inside of an Orc that makes them nasty.

I think you're right. Although the Orcs were no George Clooneys or Brad Pitts they weren't Frankenstein's monster either. As I said earlier, "half-orcs" and similar could infiltrate human societies so the real deal couldn't have looked that monstrous. Actually I remember reading somewhere a more direct description of how they looked like. Gonna try to Google it...

Ok, here goes, it's apparently from the letters:

Originally Posted by Letter #210

: "Orcs are squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."

Oh dear. Well, I suppose they did look like ugly humans after all. Poor sods.

There's also this phrase from the Silmarillion:

Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said

If the Elves thought them to be Avari gone evil and savage in the wild the Orcs can't have looked or behaved all that different to themselves, I reckon.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

I also wonder whether a redeemed Orc might look quite so ugly? It's not easy to imagine one of PJ's re-animated corpse zombie Orcs being redeemed and sitting in Ithilien pressing flowers but it might not be so unimaginable if that Orc wasn't such a pig, eh?

That's quite a picture you're painting and yes, it's very hard to imagine that Lurtz fella picking flowers and reciting poems haha.

And yeah, it's easier picturing a redeemed Orc if he or she mind you looked less monstrous. But that says more about us then them I suppose.