Tol-in-Gaurhoth L: Battle of the Fandoms

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

If you want somebody to say yes to a request, you ask them in person.

If you want to know what a person's really like? You don't ask. You accuse. You make a scene. You cause some trouble. And you observe reactions. Reactions are very much more telling than actions.

Shasta and Boro, congrats for passing my unofficial test for the day. Tomorrow, who knows. Today, you're off my hitlist.

I could see a Mithwolf in this game...

[Boromir88]

I have debated whether I wanted to say this, because I'm sure some of you will be reminded of my last village (when I was fanged) and I did a comprehensive Durelin (the seer) analysis after we killed her. But, I don't care, I'm going to say this about Brin's death and if it makes me look furry, so be it. It needs to be brought up.

A post of Brin's that stuck out (to me) is post 196 where she gives her thoughts on everyone in the village. Thus, I think it's possible the wolves might have seen this as the seer trying to give out information. Brin says "I will look at [insert name here] more..." or "I want to see..." I guess the problem is words like "look" and "see" aren't necessarily seer hints, because they're commonly used by everyone. But, what if the wolves went after Brin, because they thought she was the seer and in 196 she was trying to give hints.

I think that because her "possible wolf list" is really short:

Possible Wolf
Nogrod
Sally

And here's what she said about Nogrod:

Nogrod: I don't really like the reasoning behind his suspicions. As I mentioned yesterDay, I think was reading too much into Gwath's post. He's definitely someone I need to take a closer look at tomorrow.

And Sally:

satansaloser2005: I agree that her vote was definitely the most suspicious of Day 1. But it isn't just the vote...I agree with Boromir; her behaviour feels a bit furry to me. She's another that I want to take a closer look at tomorrow.

This would point towards Nogrod and sally then. Durelin obviously notes she doesn't know for "certain" about these two, but if one of them was a wolf, maybe they were looking to silence the (assumed) seer, before she found out for sure?

By Brin's admittance her "no idea" list is too big, and she has 5 people (including herself) in the "probably innocent" list. I will add on though there was a lot of dialogue between Nogrod, Brin, and me on whether the seer would dream of Brin, or not. Maybe the wolves thought that was a tip off too? I don't see anything else that would suggest some type of seer hint, and right now I'm thinking this idea is a bit of a stretch.

Edit: oops...when I said "Durelin obviously notes..." I meant Brin.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

If you want somebody to say yes to a request, you ask them in person.

If you want to know what a person's really like? You don't ask. You accuse. You make a scene. You cause some trouble. And you observe reactions. Reactions are very much more telling than actions.

Shasta and Boro, congrats for passing my unofficial test for the day. Tomorrow, who knows. Today, you're off my hitlist.

I could see a Mithwolf in this game...

Do I get a gold Charms feather?

In all seriousness, Lal is acting extremely oddly. I could definately see her as the cobbler in this instance; I'm as-yet unsure of her wolfishness factor. I'll do some more reading.

Expect more posting from me after rehearsal (e.g. in about three or four hours from now).

Edit: X'd with Boro.

[Boromir88]

Boro says that he 'wouldn't have been the biggest loss'. What? Out of 3 wolves? And now I am on their bandwagon...~Lal

If I had any special role I wouldn't want to get lynched on Day 1, and would do whatever I could to not get lynched. As no one special, I would have liked to stay around longer, but if I did get lynched it wouldn't have mattered.

I think Mith's provided good reasoning to why she's jumped onboard against you (and don't you think you over-exaggerate? 2 people doth a bandwagon not make).

Anyway, I'll tell you why I don't like your "I'm going to be killed by the wolves" stuff last night. If you're innocent you're either gifted or ordinary.

1. If you're gifted I have no idea why you would be so obvious in telling the wolves you're gifted, and clueing them into killing you . It would make sense for the hunter, but you can't be the hunter, because there is no hunter in this village.

2. You're an ordinary innocent trying to pose as someone gifted (thus providing cover for the real gifteds). If you're innocent I say bravo, but obviously the wolves didn't buy it so just give up the act.

3. You're a baddie. You're either a wolf and trying to scare people into believe you're gifted and thus you shouldn't be lynched. Or you're the cobbler just creating confusion.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If I had any special role I wouldn't want to get lynched on Day 1, and would do whatever I could to not get lynched. As no one special, I would have liked to stay around longer, but if I did get lynched it wouldn't have mattered.

Anyway, I'll tell you why I don't like your "I'm going to be killed by the wolves" stuff last night. If you're innocent you're either gifted or ordinary.

2. You're an ordinary innocent trying to pose as someone gifted (thus providing cover for the real gifteds). If you're innocent I say bravo, but obviously the wolves didn't buy it so just give up the act.

Love the way you neatly side-step the notion that those with special roles include those who are wolves; why would you signal your approval of Mith's vote for CoD and you 'not being the biggest loss' if you had a role other than that of a Wolf, seeing as only wolves know each others' identities Page 4 is evidence enough for anyone...plus we know Mith is likely to kill a fellow wolf when they look like they are doomed - I'm not the only one to note that.

I also love the way you and Mith assume to know what the wolves think about my theories yesterday. Funny that, given that Brinniel being killed was the most obvious curveball they could throw in.

[Boromir88]

You still haven't explained that, Boro.~Nerwen

When I voted, the last vote I saw was Mac's for CoD. I didn't know about Nogrod's, sally's, or Mith's votes.

I'm almost certain I've said this a couple times, but I'll entertain you Nerwen...I had no clue about Brin or CoD's roles. I felt Brin looked innocent (and didn't like Mac's 'case' against her), and as wierd as CoD's vote was, I don't like last minute bandwagons when no one is around. More often then not they turn out bad. However, I know my role, and hence why I told Mith I wouldn't be the biggest lost and I went ahead and voted for Lal.

why would you signal your approval of Mith's vote for CoD and you 'not being the biggest loss' if you had a role other than that of a Wolf~Lal

This is precisely why I'm not buying your innocent. How could I signal my approval for Mith's vote if I said "I wouldn't be the biggest loss" after Mith's vote? Not to mention while cross-posting?

I don't know why Mith asked me if I wanted to get lynched, she'll have to tell you.

I also love the way you and Mith assume to know what the wolves think about my theories yesterday. Funny that, given that Brinniel being killed was the most obvious curveball they could throw in.~Lal

I didn't assume anything, you're either the Ranger, Seer, an ordinary, or a baddie, and I tried to figure out why someone would want to attract that much attention to being "wolf meat."

It doesn't make any sense if you're gifted.
If you're ordinary, trying to give cover to the real gifted, it didn't work and I asked you to give up the act.
or...
you're a baddie trying to make the village believe you're gifted and weary about lynching you.

Izzy, I've been after Lal since Day 1, and I disagreed with Mac and Nogrod's suspicions against Brin, and I wondered whether the wolves thought Brin was the seer...I don't know how I'm copying everyone's arguments.

Edit: crossed with Mac

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I didn't assume anything, you're either the Ranger, Seer, an ordinary, or a baddie, and I tried to figure out why someone would want to attract that much attention to being "wolf meat."

It doesn't make any sense if you're gifted.
If you're ordinary, trying to give cover to the real gifted, it didn't work and I asked you to give up the act.
or...
you're a baddie trying to make the village believe you're gifted and weary about lynching you.

This is what is so interesting to me, especially after reading that exchange between yourself and Mith on page 4, that you are so singularly attracted to my theory that my actions were going to flush out a wolf. You can theorise all you want about me trying to cover something fishy up, but I said it was about flushing out a wolf and I hold by that

[Boromir88]

You can theorise all you want about me trying to cover something fishy up, but I said it was about flushing out a wolf and I hold by that~Lal

And you better bet I'm going to go back and double-check whether you stated those reasons or not. I could very well have missed that yesterday. But, I'm not really sure how Mith and my exchange on Day 1 are tied in with this.

If I remember yesterday Rikae pointed out it was odd Brin and Nilp suggest I had been "chummy" with Nogrod. Brin said she didn't suggest that, Nilp withdrew his statement later. I looked, Izzy was the other one who suggested Nogrod and I were buddying up. Maybe now someone will start asking you questions Izzy...why did you think that?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

...plus we know Mith is likely to kill a fellow wolf when they look like they are doomed - I'm not the only one to note that.

.

How do we know. THis has NEVER happened. I didn't vote for Roa when she slipped up in her first , I didn't vote for Izzy in Sauce's game or Nerwen in Brinniel's.

Oh and I vowed I wouldn't do this again and make you blighters thinkbut for those who set store on such things I am not a wolf. Gospel.

[Macalaure]

A second look at Sally.

Day1: Mostly joking around first. Criticises CoD for his (non-)vote, then subsequently keeps on mentioning him, which is weird, but I'm not sure whether it's evil. Goes after Boro with no real reason. Also suspects Brinn and Rikae. Let's Nogrod dissuade her from Brinn.

One certainly, like Boro, see her treatment of the Captain as a nervous wolf-on-wolf thing. What makes me doubt it is, that for Sallysawolf it would have been far more effective to simply not mention him at all. There's nervousness, but also carelessness. The placement and the reasoning for the vote suspicious.

Day 2: Thinks Kath was a random kill. Apologises for voting Boro. Thinks Gwath is not guilty. Votes Nogrod because he went after Gwath. She defends her vote from Nogrod.

Not much to comment here. I don't agree with her stance on Nogrod, but that doesn't make her suspicious.

ToDay she has not shown herself yet.


What can I say? There is certainly enough to keep on suspecting her, especially from Day1, but it doesn't earn a top spot. I really hope she'll be around more later. I need to read more of her.

[Mithalwen]

I asked Boro if he wanted to be lynched because he could have ensured his own safety and didn't. Most of us would want to save our own skin innocent or not. After all unless you thought a gifted was going down you would want to keep yourself as an innocent alive. Wolves obviously want to stay alive. Only cobblers and confident hunters might do otherwise.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I asked Boro if he wanted to be lynched because he could have ensured his own safety and didn't. Most of us would want to save our own skin innocent or not. After all unless you thought a gifted was going down you would want to keep yourself as an innocent alive. Wolves obviously want to stay alive. Only cobblers and confident hunters might do otherwise.

Page 4.



4:57 - Do you want to get lynched, Boro?
4:59 - Voting for CoD because of not wanting to lose Boro.
4:59 - Boro says he wouldn't be the biggest loss anyway.

[Macalaure]

A look at Nilp:

Day1: Nothing of importance. Misses vote.

Day2: Captain-voters look innocent. Thinks Nogrod looked suspicious on Day1, but now no longer. Is convinced by Nog's case against Brin. Boro and Nerwen look innocent. Brings up the chumminess of Boro and Nogrod which he later takes back. Doesn't give any additional reasons against Brinn, and his reasons against Gwath... *shakes head* (though I'm probably not the one to criticise flimsy Gwath-suspicions). Suspects Fea and Shasta of being wolves together. Votes Gwath. Expects to get under fire the next day (which strangely he hasn't very much so far).

The way Nilp takes up Nogrod's points, I have a hard time imagining the two are in cahoots. I could see this as Wolfnilp copying points of Nogrod that he knew were wrong.

Day3: Wants Fea to be looked at and

The problem, really, is I can't find the time to pore over the thread and get my own ideas, so I just read a well-written accusation, think 'Hmm, yes', and go with it.

Well, well, I understand. I'm not happy with it, though. The question is, of course, why would Nilpwolf have killed Brinniel? It took away his only suspect. Did Nilpwolf fear retaliation? It will be interesting to see what he comes up with later toDay. I'll reserve my judgement til then.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I asked Boro if he wanted to be lynched because he could have ensured his own safety and didn't. Most of us would want to save our own skin innocent or not. After all unless you thought a gifted was going down you would want to keep yourself as an innocent alive. Wolves obviously want to stay alive. Only cobblers and confident hunters might do otherwise.

*ponders*

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

How do we know. THis has NEVER happened. I didn't vote for Roa when she slipped up in her first , I didn't vote for Izzy in Sauce's game or Nerwen in Brinniel's.

Hey, you were going to, though... we just couldn't get anyone else to follow suit, remember?

But anyhow, the remark of mine Lal is quoting, that you (if furry) "may have thought CoD was doomed anyway" was about situation, not individual character, if you see what I mean.

She's taken a couple of things I said in that post and run right out of sight with them.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh and I vowed I wouldn't do this again and make you blighters thinkbut for those who set store on such things I am not a wolf. Gospel.

Well, that's a load off my mind...

X'd since Mac at 333.

[Mithalwen]

I am only vehemently refuting absolute balderdash. I don't claim to know what the wolves think about Lal's theories but I can't see why she thinks they would be so interested in them... after all she hadn't exactly been a threat to them. Not like she had voted for a wolf or something. Of course on Planet Lalwende getting a wolf killed makes you a wolf whereas NOT doing so - makes you wolvish enemy number one. And for all her bluster you haven't answered what you were playing at by pointing out my possible "special" role. I cannot imagine a scenario in which your behaviour fits an innocent.

Oh and since you seem determined I am a wolf could you decide whether I am a stupid one who lynches a packmate completely unnecessarily or some kind of uber machiavellian one who spends her life making byzantine plans....

Nerwen if I were a wolf who wanted to silence Gwathagor why wouldn't I have jumped on Nogrod's vote for him on day 1 ? Of course becasue it would make SO much more sense for me to kill a pack mate when I have such a good record of surviving to the end as a wolf... I had to make an early vote or no vote... so much easier if I were a wolf to say "oh I hoped to get back and vote but X cropped up"... instead of saying I would be away and saying so...

[Nogrod]

That was a fine one Boro!

(EDIT: The theory about Brinn being looked by the wolves as being the seer that is. Just to make it clear this is not referring to Boro's post on Lalwendë)

I mean I really appreciated that one. I've never thought you lacked capabilities or were not in these games for good sport.

The scenario you suggest is near plausible* one, though as you say yourself:

I guess the problem is words like "look" and "see" aren't necessarily seer hints, because they're commonly used by everyone.

Not indeed as they are used about 90% of the time people talk about their intentions of what they will do the next Day or later that Day.

But the problem with this is that this kind of speculation is coming from you! Really, when you're innocent you're quite straightforward, no monkey-bussiness, no conspiracies, "if it talks like it & walks like it - it is it" -man. You were supposed to be the guy who always told me not to fabricate too far-fetched or streched arguments as they were no good.

Then again it really looks like you've doing this somehow in "earnest" - or at least wished to make it look like a bit more serious thought - even if the reservations you put there yourself. That was no banter or joke thrown on board which you do all the time when innocent as well but basically a semi-serious effort to really suggest the focus the search to be adjusted.

I don't see you as a wolf. But my idea of you being actually the cobbler of the town just strengthens...


* "near plausible" meaning I will keep this in mind when looking at Sally but if my sense of your cobblerism doesn't come down I will in the end probably ignore it... if you thought by that way to save Sally whom you think is a wolf, then kudos for you! You deserve a feather into your hat that being the case.

EDIT: X'd with Boro

[Nogrod]

Decent points on Lal, Boro. I'm actually torn between which one of you is the cobbler...

[Isabellkya]

Boro, do you usually 'mimic' the words and phrasing of others?

[Rikae]

Yep, I don't like the way Izzy hangs around the fringes of things, occasionally "poking" at someone as if in an attempt to see if she can get suspicions flowing that way.
That's one thing that was bugging me.

[Rikae]

Nothing more?
Well, I have to work tomorrow, so I suppose I'd better vote now.

++Sally