Ring of fire, Ring of Air, Ring of ?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

LOL.

I am no expert on old philosophies. You better google "Four elements" and "Five elements" to learn much more.
I gather Tolkien mostly took into account the European (originally Greek) tradition of Air, Water, Fire, Earth and Aether. Especially considering that the Roman Catholic Church backed it. Japanese-Chinese beliefs were more alien to him, I guess.

As for the stones, it is stated (somewhere) that Nenya had an adamant, Narya a ruby and Vilya a sapphire. Nenya was made of mithril, the rest of gold. Every one of the Seven and the Nine had its own stone, but we are not told which ones.

That table's the Pratchett-Discworld one right, the one worked out by Wen the Eternally Surpised?

Okay, so the blue and red stones are specifed as being a ruby and sapphire. okay I withdraw the "three diamonds" theroy, though I do feel it is imcumbent of me to make mention of the fact that until reltively recent times (when technology allowed them to be differentiated) stones were usually assigned their identity based soley on color; any stone that was the right red was assumed to be a ruby, the right shades of green a emerlad etc. (this is why the giant stone in the british crown is called the "black prince's ruby", even though it is tecnically a spinel. Actually when someon did a study of the major sizable historic rubies in the crown jewels of europe, none ) of them turned out to actually be rubies (the few that weren't spinels were garnets) if Middle earth also classifies by color alone than a red diaons would be thought a ruby and a blue one a sapphire. Final fun aside, when the conquistadors first sacked the aztec empire the found in the treasury chuncks of truly incredible emerald (the cream of the mines of Colombia). However at that itme it was believed that emeralds were as hard and tough as diamonds so to test them the conqustadors smashed them with hammers, when the shattered they assumed what they had found was glass and discarded it. (all those fine emeralds you see in cargoes of ships like the Atocha came later after a conqustador who was actually familar with stones happen to be in a party.

[Inziladun]

Ring of fire, Ring of Air, Ring of ?

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I was wondering about something. Given the fact that each of the three eleven rings is associated with an element (Narya is referred to as the ring of fire, Villia as the ring of water, and Nenya as that of air) does anyone else get a feeling that it was orginally Celembrimbor's interntion to craft four eleven rings, that is to make a ring of earth as well. I can even vagely imagine such a ring and what it would look like; it's stone color probably green (I would even go so far as to imagine that said stone would be of similar substance to that which makes up Aragorn's Ellesar (a really fun idea for a fanfic would be the implication that that is what the ellesary orginally was, intended rough for the stone to be set in the Earth ring, and only later re-classified as a sutible token for the King of free men. well what do the rest of you think?

According to the UT chapter The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, The Elessar given to Aragorn had one of two origins:

1. It was made in Gondolin by a smith named "Enerdhil". who gave it to Turgon's daughter, Idril. She gave it to Eärendil, who took it with him to Valinor. Olórin (Gandalf) later brought it with him to ME and gave it to Galadriel

2. Galadriel was complaining to Celebrimbor in Eregion about the fading and decay she saw everywhere in ME. He, out of love for her and knowing the first Elessar to be gone forever, wrought the second Elessar to ease her heart and allow her to heal the hurts of her realm and generally arrest the passage of time (basically the same power she obtained with her use of Nenya). After she was
given the Ring, she gave the Elessar to Celebrían, her daughter, who then gave it to Arwen.

I had never considered the 'elemental' question before and can find no evidence that was Celebrimbor's intention, but I suppose it is possible.
The Elessar, however, seemingly had no part, theoretical or otherwise, in the making of the Three.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

According to the UT chapter The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, The Elessar given to Aragorn had one of two origins:

1. It was made in Gondolin by a smith named "Enerdhil". who gave it to Turgon's daughter, Idril. She gave it to Eärendil, who took it with him to Valinor. Olórin (Gandalf) later brought it with him to ME and gave it to Galadriel

2. Galadriel was complaining to Celebrimbor in Eregion about the fading and decay she saw everywhere in ME. He, out of love for her and knowing the first Elessar to be gone forever, wrought the second Elessar to ease her heart and allow her to heal the hurts of her realm and generally arrest the passage of time (basically the same power she obtained with her use of Nenya). After she was
given the Ring, she gave the Elessar to Celebrían, her daughter, who then gave it to Arwen.

I had never considered the 'elemental' question before and can find no evidence that was Celebrimbor's intention, but I suppose it is possible.
The Elessar, however, seemingly had no part, theoretical or otherwise, in the making of the Three.

I never really meant it to have a part other than theoretically. My though process was a follows; when Celembrior set about making the rings he would have of course have need raw materials, gold, mithril and gems. I made the assumption that for such a special undertaking stones would be cut specifically (there is not particualr reason for this (Celembrimbor, could have just as easly simply reached into a suppy of already cut gems and just taken out a ruby, sapphire, etc of the size he wanted, but having them cut special somehwo seems right). All I was implying with the ellesar angle was that any green stone needed for a hypotetical ring would likely have been of a similar substance to what Ellesar is made of and resemble it in color greatly. what I was implying was that if there was a ring of earth planned but never done Celembrimbor would have had a pieces of green rough lying around. this would actually still fit with the second orgin theory as celembrimbor looks to make another ellessary he look around his workshop finds the chunk of green rough and says to himself "Ah, this will do nicely" an thus begins work on the Ellessar.

[Vairë]

This is an interesting thread. I'd always thought of the One Ring as the ring of aether.
The dwarves' rings (collectively) as rings of earth makes some sense.
The Men's rings . . . well, I would not worry about them too much. Aside from the One, the three eleven rings seem most potent to me, partly because of their bearers.
The nine rings for mortal men would not need to be anywhere near the potency of the three or even the seven. Men, especially kings of men, tend to be proud, ambitious, hubristic in a rediculously short life span (that is, compared to other races). Doesn't take much to put them over the edge; they can be easily tempted to avarice. Also, just a little *magic* (Galadriel might have a problem with my use of the word) would go a long way with Men. Maybe the Men's rings are not identified with an element, but with some compound or are a lower order ring connected to the greater ones only by Sauron's binding-verse. There were many other rings in the earlier Age; any one of them would have been too much for a Man to handle, don't you think?
Just wanted to put this quirky idea forward. Hope it sparks some debate!

[Gordis]

Vairë, I think you underestimate Men - and without good grounds.

After all, Aragorn was a Man, and a great man, (and the greater you are, the greater is the pull of the Ring), but he did resist even the lure of the One: where Boromir and Isildur before him had failed.
The future nazgul were great Men as well, but they were at a grave disadvantage: they had no idea about the nature of the Rings they were offered. They didn't know the peril as the Elves kept the matter of the Rings and Sauron's involvement in it secret.
By the way, the idea that they took the Rings because of "avarice", "greed" and "without questions" in not supported by any Tolkien's writings. It is an invention of the movies, that tend to simplify things and represent Men as weak and greedy.

Anyway, the Nine Rings were not made for Men, but for Elves (as well as the Seven and the Three). They undoubtedly count among the 20 Great Rings, in contrast to the Lesser rings made before. Great Rings were able to prolong the lives of mortals - untill they faded. That was a thing that the Lesser Rings couldn't do. All the Great Rings (save the Ruling Ring) had their proper gems, while the lesser were plain.

Also consider this. The Nine and the Seven were undoubtedly part of the original plan: they were made by Celebrimbor and Annatar jointly. So, if I am right, first they made the Rings of Aether, then the Rings of Earth.

The Three is a questionable matter, Celebrimbor made them alone, after Annatar had left Eregion. But were they made in secret from Annatar, or were they part of the original plan agreed upon? I think the latter: and it is the only possible explanation if the Rings were indeed associated with the elements. (Otherwise how could the plan stop at only two elements out of the five?) Thus Celebrimbor alone made the Rings of Air, Water and Fire and completed the circle.

As for the One, it was surely NOT a part of the plan agreed upon by Celebrimbor and Annatar. It was the Ruling Ring, nasty surprise for Celebrimbor. It exceeded all the 19 Rings in power and seemingly contained all their properties combined. I believe it should be outside the "elemental scheme".

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The future nazgul were great Men as well, but they were at a grave disadvantage: they had no idea about the nature of the Rings they were offered. They didn't know the peril as the Elves kept the matter of the Rings and Sauron's involvement in it secret.

By the way, the idea that they took the Rings because of "avarice", "greed" and "without questions" in not supported by any Tolkien's writings. It is an invention of the movies, that tend to simplify things and represent Men as weak and greedy.

I will have to disagree, Gordis, Men knew full well that an enchantment lay on the Rings, and they used them quite readily to gain wealth and power, and through avarice and lust for dominion Sauron entrapped them:

Originally Posted by Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

...but to Men he gave nine, for men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.

Clearly, the implication here is that Man is more prone to evil, to avarice and to the snares of power, more so than any other race.

Originally Posted by Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerors and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing.

Likewise, it is evident that Men used the Rings as tools to increase their wealth and power, and that Men were quite aware of the abilities the Rings bestowed; however, it is also plain that, like any other addict, they ignored the painful side effects, and blithely went on using the Rings without concern for consequences. They may not have been aware of the end result, but they certainly would know the toll the Rings were taking.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also consider this. The Nine and the Seven were undoubtedly part of the original plan: they were made by Celebrimbor and Annatar jointly. So, if I am right, first they made the Rings of Aether, then the Rings of Earth.

I am unaware of Tolkien ever using the term 'Rings of Aether'. Could you point it out in the text for me? Thanks.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I will have to disagree, Gordis, Men knew full well that an enchantment lay on the Rings, and they used them quite readily to gain wealth and power, and through avarice and lust for dominion Sauron entrapped them.

The Nine Men knew it were Elven Rings of power and thus surely enchanted.
What they didn't know was that the Rings were corrupted by Sauron and that he possessed the Ruling Ring, thus gaining access to their thoughts and their souls, while they wore the Nine.
The Elves made the Rings for themselves and were eager to use them for their own ends - to "embalm" things, to prevent fading etc. Had the Elves used them, they would have been entrapped in the same way as the Nazgul. What prevented them from using the Rings was only the knowledge of Sauron's treachery: the Elves took off their Rings and didn't use them in the Second Age because they knew it was perilous while Sauron had the One. Men didn't possess such info.

As for intentions, it is clear that at least some of the Men had been well-meaning from the start:

‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’-The Shadow of the Past, LOTR

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Clearly, the implication here is that Man is more prone to evil, to avarice and to the snares of power, more so than any other race.

Actually it shows that between Dwarves and Men, Men were more easily corrupted, while Dwarves proved practically immune to the Rings. Thus Men got weaker Rings and more rings than the Dwarves. Here is the whole quote:

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power (that is the Seven and the Nine]; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.

As for "snares of power" etc. we know what certain Elves and Maiar are capable of...

Likewise, it is evident that Men used the Rings as tools to increase their wealth and power, and that Men were quite aware of the abilities the Rings bestowed; however, it is also plain that, like any other addict, they ignored the painful side effects, and blithely went on using the Rings without concern for consequences. They may not have been aware of the end result, but they certainly would know the toll the Rings were taking.

Once they started using the Rings it was next to impossible to stop: that was the whole point of the snare. And Sauron, gradually working on the Men's minds through the One, succeeded to corrupt them and to change their mentality, so their good purposes didn't last long. But had Elves or Maiar been in the Men's place, it would have happened with them as well. None was incorruptible, even Dwarves (to a certain extent). Gandalf feared to take the Ring himself, as did Galadriel, just because they knew that.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am unaware of Tolkien ever using the term 'Rings of Aether'. Could you point it out in the text for me? Thanks.

He didn't. It is a hypotheses I have advanced in my first post. Neither did Tolkien write that ALL the Rings were associated with Elements. The Three were - but what about the rest? It is being discussed in this thread.

[The Might]

I'm personally against the reasoning shown above by Gordis, when speaking of the Seven as Rings of Earth and the Nine as Rings of Aether.

It was only a coincidence that Dwarves were naturally inclined to love gold and gems that the Rings increased this lust.

As for the Nine, they worked very much like the Seven, only difference is Men wanted rather power then treasures.

So in the end you could rather say the Nine = the Seven, there was not any big difference between them really, only the consequence was due to the different bearers. So attributing them to different elements makes little sense.

As for the Three, that is a different story, as after all they were not touched by Sauron. Here you really can see a certain connection to the elements, especially in the case of Gandalf, of whom it is said that his innate power of controlling flames and fire was enhanced by the ring.

Why is there no ring of earth?
Well, I believe because the Rings were not intended to symbolise the elements in the first place.
Usually, the classical elements are thought of as being equal, but in Tolkien's works this equality is clearly broken by Vilya being stronger than the other two.

My conclusion?
It was never intended to have a Ring of Earth and the other three elements were chosen so as to fit with their bearers.