Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Nogrod]

77 posts before I even get online... I think I'm slowly getting to understand morm's usual whining about people posting a way too much in these games.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Some words on voting and representatives...

The good news is we now get to look at twice the amount of votes (I have a feeling Nogrod's going to be busy). The bad news is, we now get to look at twice the amount of votes.

Whatever you Boro think about analysing the votes - which I myself have found many times the most enlightening thing to do - there will be the fact that in this game the nature of the votes for the representatives will be very different from the actual votes of the representatives themselves - and those votes to lynch will also be different from normal lynch-votes.

The one thing I'm afraid though is that a wolf elected as a representative may hide her/his motives behind the "popular support" - as someone already said that s/he would like to see the rep vote her/his way, not the rep's own way!

So I would call for giving independence to the representatives as if they only follow their voter's wishes they are not accountable on their votes for lynching. If you don't like the way your representative acted you should vote for a different one the next Day.

Which brings me to my thoughts about the way the wolves might think. That I think is somewhat an unproductive question as there are of course different wolves as there are players playing this game differently. As a wolf tp would like to fill the place, filibuster and manipulate from the bottom of his heart (does it have one?) while I could see someone else wishing to stay away from being elected a representative as it is a bit too open and windy place to be. So I'm afraid there's no clear pattern we could be trying to look after...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The one thing I'm afraid though is that a wolf elected as a representative may hide her/his motives behind the "popular support" - as someone already said that s/he would like to see the rep vote her/his way, not the rep's own way!

So I would call for giving independence to the representatives as if they only follow their voter's wishes they are not accountable on their votes for lynching. If you don't like the way your representative acted you should vote for a different one the next Day.

Yes, especially the second paragraph boldened and twice underlined!! Because, among other things, otherwise, all this complicated Rep-system would be worth nothing. End to demagogues and hypocritical "Men of the People"! When you are voted for a Representative, show your worth! When we already have this Republic here, so let it be worth it! And those who fail your trust, into the waste with them - you can vote somebody else! This is the point of this whole system, or so I gathered - so let it be used to its fullest, so that we have something from it!

[Ilya]

++No Filibuster So that's out of the way.

I have to go back and read the, like, 2,319 posts I missed, but it seems as though we do want to limit the number of reps for now. 7 seems a reasonable number to me, but then as phantom pointed out, my name is very vowelly.

[Kath]

I'm with Lommy on the filibustering issue ... oh, or I was until she just changed her mind. I think having a filibuster toDay wouldn't be too much of a problem - it would be a good chance to see how it works, and it would be better to test it out earlier rather than later.

I'm so intrigued by this idea of representatives. I want to see how it works. I think we do need some kind of limit so we don't end up with too many people but I don't think there is any way to control that so we'll just have to see how it goes toDay.

By the way am I right about it being a 4am deadline for GMT?

[Nogrod]

After this I really need to close the browser without refreshing it or I'll never get out from here...

Originally Posted by Kath

it would be a good chance to see how it works, and it would be better to test it out earlier rather than later.

Fea, just a general question. Can the filibuster only take place at the end of the lynch-vote by the representatives (as I've thought it is) or is it possible to filibuster even when choosing the representatives?

Originally Posted by Kath

By the way am I right about it being a 4am deadline for GMT?

That's what I think it is (so 6AM here in Finland... ).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Fea, just a general question. Can the filibuster only take place at the end of the lynch-vote by the representatives (as I've thought it is) or is it possible to filibuster even when choosing the representatives?

A filibuster may occur at any time during the entire Day period of 48 hours. More than one may occur in any one day, however each player has only one filibuster at their disposal.

[Nogrod]

It is clear enough that all the people with clear conscience - with the possible exception of the seer - will vote for a representative someone s/he thinks has a good judgement and can bring down a wolf or whom s/he thinks is a wolf that could slip under pressure being forced to make a decision on the lynch (or whom s/he would just like to find out in this game - as to see how s/he performs).

As I come to think of it, this game actually seems to favour the wolves as they can hide behind voting "just" for a representative and are thus not forced to vote every Day for a lynch, if not consistently voted a representative. Looking at the brighter side we will have twice the time to discuss things everyDay and the new dynamics might even help us here on the latter parts of the Day to counter the balance back.

But what will be something like a central issue in this game later on after we get some actual data of people behaving in different ways in different stuations & actually voting - and I'm looking forwards to it as it looks like a challenge indeed - is how we should judge the way the wolves will vote and how they will do it in the end.

(Hah, I said this was an unproductive topic and here I go... )

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It is clear enough that all the people with clear conscience - with the possible exception of the seer - will vote for a representative someone s/he thinks has a good judgement and can bring down a wolf or whom s/he thinks is a wolf that could slip under pressure being forced to make a decision on the lynch (or whom s/he would just like to find out in this game - as to see how s/he performs).

Obviously, only I would be very careful with that - but I am sure everyone realises: by voting anybody as a Representative, you are placing a responsibility on him, which is good, as you get to see how he acts; however, at the same time, you are giving him power - and possibly even over your own life (if we take this from the most self-centered point of view).
However, all this situation and the model of the game is too new for us, I think, that we have yet to explore the nuances and how actually various choices go and work and impact on the game here...

But what will be something like a central issue in this game later on after we get some actual data of people behaving in different ways in different stuations & actually voting - and I'm looking forwards to it as it looks like a challenge indeed - is how we should judge the way the wolves will vote and how they will do it in the end.

...which is exactly this. Indeed, the main device of the game now is exploring these possibilities the system gives us (and it is so exciting! I really like it). So, let's just see how this rolls on...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

however, at the same time, you are giving him power - and possibly even over your own life.

Curiosity killed the cat.. I know.

I wouldn't try that in the endgame but might well consider trying it on the early Days - knowledgeable of the risk involved. But as you said, we will have to see how this plays out.

[Thinlómien]

Wow, mister Nogrodman actually makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by Legate

But I think this talk about the numbers is not completely pointless, as it can help us stop and think for ourselves and giving us one more thing to consider when voting: "Okay, I want to vote either X or Y for a Rep, but I see we have already six Representatives who have two votes, and one of them is X. And by voting Y, I am about to bring another Rep there with my vote, but I don't want such a high number of Reps, so I will vote rather for X than for Y." Something like that, I hope you get the point (of course in the example I am leaving out the things about X possibly getting four votes etc, but the example was aimed just on the number of representatives).

Yes, things like that did cross my mind but that really hasn't got that much to do with talking about the number of representatives... Because what you talk about is something that depends on every single player's common sense.

Speaking of these issues, I'd rather have lots of "weak" representatives than just a few people who wield immense power. It would strike me as more democratic and less dangerous.

And lastly, since no one has brought it up yet, it's perfectly possible that innocent people will elect one or more wolves as their representatives and thereby wolves could be trying to seem reasonable and trustworthy just to gather innocent rep votes. Which means I'm not going to vote anyone who seems too sane to be my representative.


edit: xed with Nog, Nog, Kath, Boro, Nog

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Fea, just a general question. Can the filibuster only take place at the end of the lynch-vote by the representatives (as I've thought it is) or is it possible to filibuster even when choosing the representatives?

From what I see on the Admin thread it looks like one can filibuster on both parts of the Day.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Yes, things like that did cross my mind but that really hasn't got that much to do with talking about the number of representatives... Because what you talk about is something that depends on every single player's common sense.

Speaking of these issues, I'd rather have lots of "weak" representatives than just a few people who wield immense power. It would strike me as more democratic and less dangerous.

Why not vote just one person and give it many votes? "...into the first Gallactic Empaijaa!!!"

(Wow. I never thought before how much, when written, this seems like Finnish... )

Though not, of course, that's why I spoke about some 5 or 6 or so representatives looking as an optimal number from my part. Hauevaa, while you are right that it depends on every player's common sense, it is always worth pointing that out to give others food for thought - and then apply their common sense enrichened by the conscious reflection of what has been said on the topic. Isn't that what we do with all things in WW?

EDIT: x-ed with Fea. Okay, so I was right

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro and Phantom seem to be nicely buddy-buddy today, don't they?

[Boromir88]

Imagine I vote for a player, and the only reason for me voting him would be because he supports lynching the people I want to.~Legate

I never knew I'd have to spell it out all here...I mean I thought it was kind of already assumed that you choose a representative who you trust.

I doubt anyone is going to be choosing their reps on a whim, or based solely on the fact that their rep wants to lynch the same person. I have high expectations. Someone I trust is innocent, and someone who will repesent me, I expect both. End of story. If you can't live up to that, tough luck.

Which is why I'm confused to why exactly you ruled out the phantom so soon? Explain it to me, was it a joke for some laughs, and a little fun at what you promised earlier? I mean really if we follow your logic for not wanting to choose the phantom right now, you can say that about anyone in this village. I see no reason you should trust anyone right now, but right off the bat you said it aint gonna be the phantom. You didn't exclude anyone else, just the phantom.

By no means am I saying the phantom should be a representative, but the question is why should we immediately exclude anyone? Because of the history? Are you afraid history will repeat itself if you make the same mistakes? Why does what Day we're on make any difference?

This is a clean slate, a brand new ball game. If I was to use such a weak excuse as "history" for not choosing a rep, I could come up with some cockamamy reason for anyone in this village except Ilya.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro, you could say history doesn't matter, but look at how much Phantom has already said! History tends to repeat itself, after all.

[Aganzir]

Hello I'm here. Sorry to come so late but a friend of mine begged she coud cook for me and I just didn't have the heart to say no. However, I should write a paper for tomorrow and I am tired and in a rather bad mood so I don't know how much I'm going to post.

I don't care how many representatives we have. I'm going to vote for the one I think will see to my interests the best. Besides the less reps there are, the greater their power, which I don't find a good thing. Also, I don't care if my rep can be around at deadline or not. As for deadline, it is 6am my time and I'm not going to be around that late (nor wake up that early, for that matter). And should anybody vote me for a rep, they would also have to bear in mind that my votes will be cast early.

Originally Posted by THE Ka

*sigh* Aganzir, it looks like we're in a dead heat in the: "Sneaky Scary Idol: Scar or Kaa?" Contest again... Don't worry, I'll vote for you of course.

Haha, yes. So, do we have any chance but to trust in you, just in you? By the way, I bet I would be elected as a rep if I sang Be Prepared.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And one thing to make it clear. Mr. P. is not getting my vote as a Representative, no way.

Yeah - after all, this is supposed to be a democracy, not theocracy.

I don't care if there are filibusters or not, at least for now.

Okay I really don't have anything to say. I'll try to get my paper at least half done and then concentrate on coming up with opinions on people.

[Nogrod]

Also.

I'd say we should not shy away from actually trying to suspect people on this first Day as well even if there are a host of interesting new things to speculate upon. We should use the extra time we have to discuss things and to call for all the people to participate. You all know what democracy with 60% partake-rate (too many submarines) and not discussing the actual topics that influence our welfare (the identity of the werewolves) is. Just the "politics as usual" which will get us nowhere.

And just to prevent the all too usual protests: I'm not saying we have too many submarines right now. It's still possible that some Europeans have not gotten from work, study etc. But I truly wish all people will in the end of the Day have participated according to their resources. And I'm trying to encourage that.

I need to take a break now but will come back with hopefuly some more to the point thoughts on players thus far.

[Boromir88]

there will be the fact that in this game the nature of the votes for the representatives will be very different from the actual votes of the representatives themselves~Nogrod

I concede that as a point in your column, a person voting for a rep will hold different information than a rep casting a vote.

The one thing I'm afraid though is that a wolf elected as a representative may hide her/his motives behind the "popular support" - as someone already said that s/he would like to see the rep vote her/his way, not the rep's own way!~Nogrod

I disagree. I will pick someone who will represent my voice. Period. That doesn't mean we still can't hold people accountable for their own decisions, whether they said they were only going with their constituents or not. "Popular support" is a lame cop out, the person who best expresses their intentions, and his/her intentions fit best with mine, will be my representative. That's a heck of a lot different than me saying I'm going to pick the first person who will suck up to me, by agreeing with me, because you can't throw bull crap past this pig pen raker.

If he proves to work well for the intentions of this village, I am going to be the first one to nominate him.~Legate

What do you mean by "the intentions of this village?" Do you mean if the the phantom proves he means well in the sense that he can lead the village to lynching wolves? Or do you mean he will prove to serve your own sinister intentions?

I think they might just lay low and vote innocents as representatives because it's more probable that a village lynches an innocent anyway.~Lommy

If you are speaking as far as Day 1's go, I would agree with that. However, a bold, no holding back wolf will not skirt away from a chance of being a representative and lead us all like sheep in lynching innocencts.

Edit: xed with everyone since's Nogrod's post #81

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'd say we should not shy away from actually trying to suspect people on this first Day as well even if there are a host of interesting new things to speculate upon. We should use the extra time we have to discuss things and to call for all the people to participate. You all know what democracy with 60% partake-rate (too many submarines) and not discussing the actual topics that influence our welfare (the identity of the werewolves) is. Just the "politics as usual" which will get us nowhere.

Yes, although at least for myself, I have decided to use this "two-day" (in fact) system and try to keep my opinons on people for myself for a bit longer than usual, i.e. voicing them only very late in the Day, because I want to make a clearer picture on everybody, not given just by first impressions (and as soon as I say "X looks suspicious" or simply evaluate somebody, it will create a reaction, which I don't want yet. I want to see everybody for a while in their "natural environment" as a mere observer. Call it an experiment for toDay).

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I disagree. I will pick someone who will represent my voice. Period. That doesn't mean we still can't hold people accountable for their own decisions, whether they said they were only going with their constituents or not. "Popular support" is a lame cop out, the person who best expresses their intentions, and his/her intentions fit best with mine, will be my representative. That's a heck of a lot different than me saying I'm going to pick the first person who will suck up to me, by agreeing with me, because you can't throw bull crap past this pig pen raker.

That is one way of looking at things, but this, in my opinion, is not as easy as you paint it. Because, I don't believe it will be like: X says "I will lynch Y" and I say "good, I want to lynch Y too, let's make X a Representative!" If I take it just from the minimalistic point of view, there will be the whole next Day between my nomination and X's actual vote, and during that time, X may re-evaluate his opinions etc., whatever. Or, X may have on his suspect list as well Y and Z, while I think Z is innocent and wouldn't like to see him lynched. No: okay, I know we don't know yet how things are going to work in real, but for now, my opinion is, the vote for my representative will be a vote for somebody I know I can trust to make a honest judgement under any circumstances. Imagine I vote for a player, and the only reason for me voting him would be because he supports lynching the people I want to. But suddenly, one of those people reveals as Seer. Or, worse, somebody reveals as Seer and somebody else as a Seer too, and now the Reps have to choose. It doesn't matter who they suspected before, now it's either Seer A or Seer B - one is a liar. And in this situation, I wish my representative to be able to judge for himself. So, I am not nominating anybody just because he by chance happened to suspect the same person as me (although of course I am not saying this can't be a criterion in the choice).

Originally Posted by Boro

What do you mean by "the intentions of this village?" Do you mean if the the phantom proves he means well in the sense that he can lead the village to lynching wolves? Or do you mean he will prove to serve your own sinister intentions?

That's actually what I have to see yet. Simply put, I need him to convince me that he a) seems un-sinister enough for me to put my trust in him (which is a thing that concerns everybody in the village), b) I get certain that he does not vote wilfully to whomever his momentary whim points, but behave responsibly according to the position of the Rep that is given to him (and not end up just joking around and behaving, as my RPG players would put it, "like a terrible Chaotic").

EDIT: X-ed since the Boro I am quoting

[Eönwë]

About ye filibustere-

I think that today, there is really no need for them. They won't actually help anyone (we know nothing) and there's really no point in doing one. However, if someone wants to waste their filibuster today (this early on), eho am I to stop them?

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