Winged Beasts, a squandered resource?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, 'in' as 'on', like hiking 'in' or 'among' or 'along' the mountains, not necessarily 'within' or 'under'. Bah! I'm getting a prepositional headache.

I suppose it's rather like the way a lot of Yorkshire folk will say "I live on..." rather than "I live in..." when saying which part of a town they live in.

[Gordis]

I was trying to find some data on the wing structure of Tolkien dragons, found nothing convincing in "the Hobbit", then tried the web and found this article: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dragons

The author states: "Tolkien designed his own taxonomic system for dragons." I am curious, what is the source? Does anyone know?

[Nerwen]

From internal evidence, it looks as if the writer just meant winged vs wingless, and cold-drakes vs firedrakes... and was just using the word "taxomonic" to show off.

[Alfirin]

also interestingly it looks like based on his descriptions of named dragons that, if Scatha indeed did have only two legs (I don't remember Tolkein saying this explicity, but it is certainly possible that I simply missed that) he would tecnically match up to the dragon subspecies referred to as a Lindworm or possibly a Taezelwurm, at least under some definitions (both terms have been used for so many types over the centuries, rightly or wrongly that a precise defintion is hard to pin down) Maybe this should be obvios by the fact that Scatha is referred to as a "long worm" (my early scandanavian isn't good so I have no idea if "lind" can mean "long" (my translator transaltes it as "gentle".) but it was new to me.

[Gordis]

Honestly I don't believe a word in this article - and won't believe unless I see the source.

Take Scatha. I believe the following quote is the only one about this dragon.

Of his son, Fram, they tell that he slew Scatha, the great dragon of Ered Mithrin, and the land had peace from the long-worms afterwards. Thus Fram won great wealth, but was at feud with the Dwarves, who claimed the hoard of Scatha. Fram would not yield them a penny, and sent to them instead the teeth of Scatha made into a necklace, saying: "Jewels such as these you will not match in your treasuries, for they are hard to come by." Some say that the Dwarves slew Fram for this insult.

So where is the mention of the two legs?

There is no mention of Scatha in the Silm, or UT, or Tolkien's Letters, or in Home 12, as far as I can see..

Can someone fine another source speaking of Scatha?


Yet in the L # 19 there is a mention of the lecture on dragons Tolkien had to prepare for Natural History Museum (!)
( Note: On 1 January 1938 Tolkien lectured on 'Dragons' as part of a series of lectures for children at the University Museum, Oxford.)

I wonder is there more info about this lecture?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Can someone fine another source speaking of Scatha?

I don't think there is one... and it wouldn't be the first time that a wiki editor has been, let us say, a trifle over-imaginative.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I don't think there is one... and it wouldn't be the first time that a wiki editor has been, let us say, a trifle over-imaginative.

I think the encyclopedia of Arda hit it on the head:

Though Tolkien gives almost no clues about long-worms in the text of The Lord of the Rings, his illustrations of dragons give us some further hints. Tolkien's dragons tend to be sinuous, serpentine creatures, having the appearance almost of a winged snake rather than the more traditional dragon-form. This would explain the term 'long-worm' easily. It's interesting to note that Tolkien gave this form to another northern dragon, Smaug, which strongly suggests that he, too, was one of the long-worms.

There is absolutely no indication that Scatha, or any Tolkien dragon, had two legs (as a 'long-worm' would be rather ungainly with two legs). I think some pseudo-scholars naturally link Tolkien to 'wyverns' based on the Anglo-saxon etymology of the word (A-S 'wivere', which means 'serpent', related to the French 'vouivre', both linked to the term 'viper'). Wyverns are supposedly two-legged and winged. The wyvern was a symbol of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex, and is the symbol of the Dragon School in Oxford. So the wyvern is linked to Tolkien by incidental association, although Tolkien never showed any affinity for that type of dragon. At least, not that I can recall.