General changes in TftE

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Well, the ai<ae shift is pretty common in Sindarin. I'd say that change is likely.


Oh, and thank you, Aiwendil!

EDIT: "Thoron Sîr" should probably be altered to "Sîr Thoron" (as in "Aran Moria").

[Aiwendil]

Indeed, as Jallanite (I think) noted so long ago:

{Thorn Sir}[Thoron Sîr] This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomish to their QS77 and LR Sindarin forms, but I’m not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.

Certainly it seems that if the meaning is to be 'River of (the) Eagle' then it would have to be 'Sîr Thoron'. But it seems to me rather that 'eagle' is being used adjectivally: 'Eagle River'. But I don't know if that kind of noun-noun construction is used in later Sindarin.

On another note: Having thought about it some more, I now think it quite probable that the plot-synopsis in which 'Faramir' occurs is later than the texts that use 'Gelmir' and that Tolkien changed the name precisely to avoid the repetition of the name. Earlier I had supposed that the fact that CT used 'Gelmir' in UT suggested he thought that was the final form adopted in the Narn. However, it now occurs to me that he likely used 'Gelmir' so as to agree with the '77. So I think we're agreed on {Gelmir}[Faramir] now.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Well, adjectives in Sindarin (outside of compounds) are also typically after their noun, so the construction should still change.

[Aiwendil]

Good point! Okay, I suppose that unless we can find a counter-example showing that the syntax is acceptable, we should change {Thorn Sir}[Sîr Thoron].

[gondowe]

I suppose you have adopted Lalaeth, and Sir Thoron as definitive, don't you?
And for the note about Faramir and Arminas by Findegil above, have you decided to change, what names of the Earendil's companions.

What had you decided about Gil-galad, I didn't remember to ask you if you had discussed about him (I suppose so). I had adopted the name Rodnor as son of Orodreth (with Finduilas and Haldir), but Orodreth still son of Finarfin.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Gondowe, this thraed is a bit diffrent from other: In general a change needs an agreement of the hole group. Somtimes unisono as seldom as possible by voting. In such questions as mostly collected here it is more a kind of silence agreement to what an expert decided or (since we have the luck in the moment that more than one linguistic expert is activ) two experts found by discussion. Hotly debatable subjects will be discussed in seperate threads.


Lalaith => Lalaeth: Seems fairly save.

Thoron Sir => Sîr Thoron: Aiwendil and Aran agreed, so it seems done.

Gelmir [the companien of Arminas] => Faramir: Done after Aiwendil agreed.

About the note making Faramir and Arminas companions of Earendil: We will take up the note into the text of the Narn, but we not change any names in The Voyage of Earendil simply because Faramir and Arminas could have been companions of Earendils earlier voyages and not the last one.

Gil-galad's parantag is: Gil-galad son of Orodreth son of Angrod son of Finarfin.
Haldir son of Orodreth is not included in our version. In our oppinion Haldir son of Orodreth was the literary anchester of Handir Lord of Brethil.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the note making Faramir and Arminas companions of Earendil: We will take up the note into the text of the Narn, but we not change any names in The Voyage of Earendil simply because Faramir and Arminas could have been companions of Earendils earlier voyages and not the last one.

Gil-galad's parantag is: Gil-galad son of Orodreth son of Angrod son of Finarfin.
Haldir son of Orodreth is not included in our version. In our oppinion Haldir son of Orodreth was the literary anchester of Handir Lord of Brethil.

Ok Findegil.
As for the first matter and I said before I think we must leave the three original companions, but I think that in QS is said that they were companions of Eärendil in all the seas, or something like this.

As for the second matter, I'm agree in your opinion but Haldir can be a good reason (as is said in the rejected annal) to the increase of vigilance in the forest of Narog, and the other one is a man so I don't have problems with the names. And the matter of Orodreth brougth me a more difficult rework in the whole text, for that reason I kept him as son of Finarfin.

Greetings

[Aiwendil]

Gondowe wrote:

And the matter of Orodreth brougth me a more difficult rework in the whole text, for that reason I kept him as son of Finarfin.

Indeed, the matter of Orodreth's parentage and children is among the most difficult in the Legendarium. I, at least, did not appreciate just how tricky an issue it is when I first read HoMe - only in actually working on editing the texts in this project did some of the difficulties become apparent. If nothing else, I do now better understand Christopher Tolkien's decision to leave Orodreth the son of Finarfin and Gil-Galad the son of Fingon.

I think we must leave the three original companions, but I think that in QS is said that they were companions of Eärendil in all the seas, or something like this.

QS says that they had 'sailed all the seas beside him'. It's not completely clear to me that this means that there was no occasion when Earendil sailed in a ship without them - but even if it does, we could still suppose any of the following:

- On his early voyages, Earendil's companions were Aerandir, Erellont, Falathar, Arminas, and Faramir

- Two of Aerandir, Erellont, and Falathar are merely other names for Arminas and Faramir (Elves have at least a mother-name and a father-name and often additional after-names)

- Arminas and Faramir were indeed with Earendil on his great voyage but either became separated from him or died in the course of his adventures before he and his remaining companions reached Aman

[gondowe]

Making Gil-galad (Rodnor) as son of Orodreth not complicate so much the edition, only the add of the concept that he flew with his mother from the attack of Nargothrond. And for example I introduce a passage when Sauron took Minas Tirith that Orodreth flew to Nargothrond with his wife and his sons Finduilas Haldir and the young Rodnor. The name Gil-galad was given by his mother and introduced in the last chapter, previously I omitted the word Gil-galad.

By the way It's also easy (I think, as I did) to take the great history of the dead of Amrod in the burning of the ships. (I think it´s more dramatical for the character of Fëanor), because the participation of the twins were minor in the history and I only omit the references to Amrod ( always "and Amras"), the plurals, and "seven sons" to "six sons", etc.

Greetings

[Findegil]

We have not worked out the earlier chapters of the Beleriandic history, but the Concept to name Gil-galad late and use his name Ereinion would be suitable.

We took Ereinion as valid throughout. So I could not recall when that discussion was held the last time we worked on the "Voyages of Earendil" and I still can't. With a bit of luck Aiwendil has some idea were to search, since I did not find it in the obvious places.

Yes, we have also burned Amrod at Losgar. But we did not change 'seven sons' to 'six sons'. The general change would be 'seven sons' to 'sons'. We thought the is more in accordance with that Feanorians attemp to hush it up, so to speak. When a number was needed we added 'remaining' or a similar phrase before the number.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar-Telperien]

Hello. I have returned from an absence of years; my interest in this project has recently been renewed. You're still doing such excellent work after all these years. I've not had much of a part aside from offering simple suggestions here and there, which I'm about to do again.

Originally Posted by Findegil

Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form. At least gwar- seems still valid as in Amon Gareth/Gwared upon which Gondolin is built. Also valid is the stem TIR- which is contained in –estrin according to the explanation of the name in BoLT 1, Appendix.

I'm afraid this won't work, for phonological reasons if nothing else. The consonant cluster -str- appears to be disallowed in later Sindarin. For example, the terms nothrim 'house' and nothlir 'family line' come from the word nost; when the word is compounded, -st because -th- to avoid the disallowed combinations -str- and -stl-. This process also happens in the very term Gondothrimbar, one of the other names of Gondolin: it is gond + ost + rim + bar. The compound **ostrim is impossible, so it becomes othrim instead. Thus, "Gwarestrin" as such has to be replaced by something else.

We seem to have a few options:

1. The most conservative one is simply to replicate the phonological process discussed above and replace Gwarestrin with Gwarethrin. I would have suggested this, but since Tolkien later replaced Gwareth with Gwared, it might be better to do something else, since the concept of a voiceless consonant at the end of the word has been done away with.

2. Therefore, another option is to use Gwaredrin, or something similar, thus preserving Tolkien's later preference of Gwared over Gwareth. (I am confused about the morphological boundary of this word. Is it Gwares-trin, or Gwarest-rin, or Gwar-estrin, or what?)

3. The third option would be to get rid of the (surely outdated) suffix -trin or whatever it is, along with changing the phonology. I lean toward this, but it would require more conjecture and editorial intrusion. What I'm most tempted to suggest is Minas Gwared, since minas was a common designation of citadels in later Sindarin. It works perfectly with the translation given in the text (Tower of Guard) and preserves the clear connection between the name of the city and the hill it stands on that exists in the original term Gwarestrin. The problem with this one, of course, is that it takes the most liberty with the text and ruins the alliteration of the Seven Names: all the names of Gondolin aside from Loth and Loth-a-laden start with G. Perhaps Gwarmindon could work? Mindon means an isolated hill with a central watch tower, which is essentially what Gondolin was.

EDIT: Okay, after having looked it up in the Fall of Gondolin names list, estrin apparently combines esc and tirin. If we want to be conservative, we could put that extra i back in and call it Gwarestirin. The well-known tir root would become more visible that way, in addition to the word being phonologically correct.

I don't know enough about Sindarin to come up with any other options. But it would seem that something has to be done about this glaring phonological error.

[Findegil]

It seems we have 2 open ends in this thread:

Bauglir -> Baugron:
It seems that Tolkien made a kind of standarisation of names late in his life. We already adopted Tauros -> Tauron, in another thread we discuss Maedros -> Maedron. All in all this makes the changes more consistent to me. I would adopt both Maedros -> Maedron and Bauglir -> Baugron

Gwarestrin -> ???
I think it would not be good to produce any new name like 'Minas Gwared' or 'Gwarmindon'. I would rather go with the conservativ approach and use 'Gwarestirin'.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello, two new proposals:

Change {Erchamion}[Erchamon] per Eldarin, hands, Fingers and Numerals, VT47g 7

include only in the Valaquenta an allusion of Mairon as the original name of Sauron per Words, Phrases and passages PE17, pg183:
for example:
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was [Mairon,] that spirit whom the Eldar [later] called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning...

Greetings

[Findegil]

{Erchamion}[Erchamon]: I think since 'Eldarin, hands, Fingers and Numerals' is a late text, this change is to be adopted.

The intorduction of 'Mairon' as Saurons real name isn't really a general change. But it is a good idea and I will post the proposed change in the thread discussing the Valaquenta.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

{Palúrien}[Kementári] by a pencilled change on LQ 2. This was as it were a casual change, not made in §15 (nor in §5). Kementári occurs in the Valaquenta (p. 202).

This was discussed in the thread about the Ainulindalë as AINU-14. The change will become more prominet in the Valaquenta in is therefore taken up to be a general one.

Respectfuly
Findegil