Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Galin]

Oh, OK.

I'm sure Christopher Tolkien had his reasons, but maybe they were something other than having to do with Elrond's children? maybe Elrond's children would have been 'default mortal' (by having some measure of mortal blood), but yet they had other doom extended to them?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

Oh, OK. But I'm not sure why it need be superseded. Can't Elrond's children be 'default mortal' by having some measure of mortal blood? Unless (as happened) other doom was also extended to them.

If Arwen were mortal by default then the doom of Luthien is irrelevant. She is mortal, falls in love with a mortal. No big deal. The terrible doom would be Elrond's (as was presumably Mithrellas) to be the immortal parent of mortal children.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

If Arwen were mortal by default then the doom of Luthien is irrelevant. She is mortal, falls in love with a mortal. No big deal. The terrible doom would be Elrond's (as was presumably Mithrellas) to be the immortal parent of mortal children.

Well, I mean mortal by default unless (as I say) '(as happened) other doom was also extended to them.' -- meaning they would have been mortal, just like Elros and Elrond would have been mortal, but other doom was granted to them. Manwe said:

'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...'

But he adds: 'in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons...' which appears to say he is given power in this matter to grant a doom other than that which would normally occur (both Earendil and Elwing were 'potential immortals' once given the choice, and as it happens, they both chose immortality). Much later Tolkien writes (albeit in draft):

2300 '(...) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.'

OK, they had some measure of mortal blood anyway, and should have been mortal by default -- but they were not mortal or immortal by default by virtue of being given a choice -- and had they not been granted other doom they would have been automatically sundered from their parents in fate (and note that all these beings with mortal blood are not being withheld the gift of God).

In any event we have Tolkien-published text that all three children were given the choice. So, for myself, I see no necessary conflict here (so far! that is), and have been submitting the idea that if Manwe's speech was still in play, then Elros' children were also default mortal -- but they need not be given the choice, for his choice (and he must be free to choose mortality or immortality without notable constraint in the first place, to have a true and fair enough choice to begin with), once made, meant that they would not be automatically sundered from their parents while (basically) the natural order of Eru was restored in that line -- the 'natural order' as illuminated by Manwe (QS, Lost Road version) before he pronounced that he could yet give special dispensation in the specific matter at hand.

And the power to do so, I think, must have come from Eru.

[CSteefel]

Rather than being "mortal by default", the statement seems to be that they have the life of the Eldar by default based on what Elrond says in Appendix A:

But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world.