Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[William Cloud Hicklin]

though this now leads me to envisage Arwen as a jolly-hockeysticks Betjemanesque heroine...

.........complete with twin-potlid-breastplate, horned helmet and spear....

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

.........complete with twin-potlid-breastplate, horned helmet and spear....

Oh William, you certainly picked that ball up and ran with it... taking the merely formidably athletic to the positively Wagnerian... which may be a valid source but scary.....After all, the standards of beauty in ME may have been rather more Rubenesque than usally supposed. Not that I have a problem with that in itself only with the extrapolated mental image of Luthien dancing for Beren looking like one of the corp de ballet in Fantasia *snork*.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords

Well, I would read that as implying that they are being compared to Elf-lords, which implies that they are not, in fact, Elf-lords.

On Rubenesque heroines- I doubt it. One of T's favorite adjectives for good-lookin' wimmen, besides "fair," is "slender:" Goldberry, Galadriel, Eowyn and p'raps others all get the label. And Luthien is "lissome", which can be taken as the antonym of "hippo."

[Mithalwen]

Oh I know ... and of course Luthien is so linked with Edith who was very far from being even betjemanesque...
but some how my mind's eye is refusing to expect the overwhelming textual and contextual evidence ... my bad...

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, I would read that as implying that they are being compared to Elf-lords, which implies that they are not, in fact, Elf-lords.

It's a description by one of the characters, not by the narrator. The character then says "and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond". Which I interpret as saying "Silly me, of course they look like elf-lords, they are the sons of the Lord of Rivendell himself". I don't think it is ever suggested that Elrond himself looks more like a Man than an Elf.

I suspect that not all Elves necessarily have a noble and gallant bearing - I liken Elladan and Elrohir to Elves like Gil-Galad and Glorfindel. Elves who are handy with a sword and a spear and also born to rule.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I do find it interesting that the choice was explicitly given to Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros, and that that choice was extended to Elrond's children- but not to Elros'!

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway? I don't think that Elros' offspring could chose whether or not they could be mortal or immortal. They were just mortal men with really LONG lifespans.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway? I don't think that Elros' offspring could chose whether or not they could be mortal or immortal.

Well, that's rather the point: Elros' children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Why? The only explanation I can think of is the priority given to the "Gift of Men." (Of course, Elros' children lived as and among Men, and were themselves more than three-quarters human, whereas the reverse was true of Arwen and her brothers).

[Galin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway?

I would say both Elros and Elrond's children had the same choice in potential (both are 'potential immortals' for example), but only the children of the immortal need be given the choice.

The mortal (once chosen) will essentially restore the natural order of Eru without sundering child from parent, and the special dispensation given to Earendil and Elwing need not be extended yet again in this circumstance.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, that's rather the point: Elros' children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Why? The only explanation I can think of is the priority given to the "Gift of Men." (Of course, Elros' children lived as and among Men, and were themselves more than three-quarters human, whereas the reverse was true of Arwen and her brothers).

Or the other question is why in fact would Elros have chosen mortality. Seems like a bad deal when two Ages of Men later Elrond is attending parties and listening to Bilbo's verse in the comfort of Rivendell, while Elros his brother had been dead for 6,000 years or so.

Which brings me back to a point that may bear on Elrohir and Elladan's decision (assuming they had one). Why would they choose to be mortal? In the case of both Arwen and Luthien, it seems to be a case where love for a mortal man is stronger than the desire for immortality, but it is not particularly clear what the attraction for Elrohir and Elladan would be. Although the same could be said for Elros...

It is not stated what happened to the two brothers, but it seems that they would have been mentioned somewhere in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen if they were still around 120 years after Elrond left. The same might be said of Celeborn, however, since one would think that Arwen might seek out her grandfather at this point. The implication is that all of the High Elves were gone by this time...