Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Or the other question is why in fact would Elros have chosen mortality. Seems like a bad deal when two Ages of Men later Elrond is attending parties and listening to Bilbo's verse in the comfort of Rivendell, while Elros his brother had been dead for 6,000 years or so.

Which brings me back to a point that may bear on Elrohir and Elladan's decision (assuming they had one). Why would they choose to be mortal? In the case of both Arwen and Luthien, it seems to be a case where love for a mortal man is stronger than the desire for immortality, but it is not particularly clear what the attraction for Elrohir and Elladan would be. Although the same could be said for Elros...

There is evidence in the books that immortality can be a two-edged sword. Consider the speech given to the Númenórean King Tar-Atanamir by Elves:

(Elves) cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?

Coming from the Elves themselves, that would seem to indicate at least some of them are not terribly enamored with their life potential.
Perhaps Elros (or the sons of Elrond) would have had similar thoughts.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Rather than being "mortal by default", the statement seems to be that they have the life of the Eldar by default based on what Elrond says in Appendix A:

The life of the Eldar until the choice is made, that's how I would put it -- at least with respect to fate, which is the main concern.

'But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world.'

As I read it this can easily mean that Arwen will have no reason to choose mortality -- in other words, Elrond knows his daughter, and thus knows she will likely pass Over Sea with him if Aragorn were not in the picture. Aragorn has just said (directly before this) that the choice must soon be laid on your children, and Elrond responded 'Truly'... and then goes on to say the part you quoted. This fits with the earlier statement in Appendix A.

Arwen is not default immortal nor default mortal by virtue of the choice -- and Luthien is an exception. Arwen's choice merely echoes that of Luthien's, and she would have arguably chosen an Elven fate had not Aragorn been in the picture (again, which is what I glean from the quote you posted).

Theoretically 'a mortal' of course, but as the history turned out, specifically Aragorn and Beren.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

There is evidence in the books that immortality can be a two-edged sword. Consider the speech given to the Númenórean King Tar-Atanamir by Elves:

Coming from the Elves themselves, that would seem to indicate at least some of them are not terribly enamored with their life potential.
Perhaps Elros (or the sons of Elrond) would have had similar thoughts.

Interesting perspective.

Otherwise, I might have guessed that there was something about the Elven life that left the individuals disconnected--Elros, for example, was offered a chance to rule a kingdom. The argument against would be that Elrond was able to found and lead Rivendell for thousands of years, although at the end of the Third Age certainly the Elves were marginalized. Perhaps initially the important role for Elrond beyond that of a mostly spiritual and scholarly life was less clear. For Arwen, it would also be a choice between going to the Undying Lands or having some part in ruling a kingdom of men. Even before the First Age, we see Galadriel getting antsy to strike out on her own and rule a kingdom, which is one of the explanations for her leaving for Middle Earth in the first place.

[Galin]

Well, it's a mortal perspective that sometimes puts the Elvish longevity ('immortality' of the Elves) above the gift of God to Men, but also, there is the idea that the gift will come to be envied by the Elves, and 'which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy' (from The Silmarillion, chapter Of The Beginning Of Days).

In letter 156 (1954) Tolkien wrote that in the view of the myth, Death, or the mere shortness of human life-span, is not a punishment for the Fall, and: 'The attempt to escape it is wicked because 'unnatural', and silly because death in that sense is the Gift of God (envied by the Elves), release from the weariness of Time.'

And in 1958, draft letter 212:

'Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythically these tales are Elf-centered, not anthropocentric (...) This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'. It should be regarded as an Elvish perception of what death -- not being tied to the 'circles of the world' - should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a 'mortal' Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one.'

In 1963 (letter 245) Tolkien says that the Elves believed death meant: 'liberation from the circles of the world', and was in this respect to them enviable. And they would point out to Men who envied them that a dread of ultimate loss, though it may be indefinitely remote, is not necessarily the easier to bear if it is in the end ineluctably certain: a burden may become heavier the longer it is borne.' And in the Athrabeth (1959-ish) Finrod does say that: 'Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. (...) But is it not clear that a foreseen doom long delayed is in all ways a lighter burden than one that comes soon.' And in the Commentary to the Athrabeth: 'men were, of course, in general entirely ignorant of the 'Shadow Ahead' which conditioned Elvish thought and feeling, and simply envied Elvish 'immortality'.

After the Athrabeth, Tolkien makes the point that it is a conversation, and it may have some interest for men who start with similar beliefs or assumptions to those held by the Elvish King Finrod. And it is specifically said that the Elves, observing that all Men died (a fact confirmed by Men), held that death was natural, and that the fear (plural of fea) of Men left Time sooner or later, and never returned. More generally, in 1956 Tolkien explained (letter 186):

'The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.'

And in his essay on Fairy Stories: 'And lastly there is the oldest and deepest desire, the Great Escape: the Escape from Death. Fairy-stories provide many examples and modes of this (...) Fairy-stories are made by men not by fairies. The Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness.'

And it might be added too that immortality is the natural state of the Elves of course, and Tolkien refers to this also as a special gift to them: 'Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (...) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.' These last two bits of information come once again from the famed letter 153 -- I note this considering that I think, in the books, Tolkien has a least implied the Sons of Elrond chose mortality -- versus this letter where he says they delayed their choice after Elrond left, but what can I do.

[Alfirin]

A thought occurs to me, if (as some suggested) elros's children should have been elegible for "the choice" (I'm not saying they were, only that some of those on the board suggested they should have been being part elf) that shouln't Eldarion have had the same opportunity? After all he was also part elf. In fact he is slightly more elf than Elros's children they are 1/4 and he is 3/8 or more accurately very slighty more than 3/8 (the "slightly more is becuse if Aragorn is a descendent of decendent of the Kings of Numernor, he has a few dribbles of Elros's blood in him too. How much however, can't be accurety determined for a simple reason, namely that while his paternal amount could be determined ( 1/2 to the n where n is the number of gererations between Aragorn and Elros) it's a fair bet that after a few generations many of the Numernorian ancestors would have took wives who were distant relatives (Numernor didn't have a huge population, and royal/noble families tend to inbreed quite a bit anyway whether by law or custom) and who would have varios amounts of Elros's blood in them too so to get the true amount in Eldarion you'd need to know all of his female ancestors geneologies as well.)

[Mithadan]

Before letting this issue go, I want to take one last shot at making sense of the matter. Rather than trying to interpret snippets of text, I'd like to look at the issue dispassionately based upon lineage and parentage, as, presumably, the Valar would have needed to look at the issue when they decided it at the end of the First Age.

Beren was a Man. Luthien, despite her lineage by birth, received leave to be counted as mortal and returned to Beleriand with Beren... "for a time". Both were mortal. Dior was a Man, not a Half-Elf. Tuor and Idril begot Earendil, a true Half-Elf. Dior wedded Nimloth, an Elf, and begot Elwing, a Half-Elf. Elrond and Elros, sons of Earendil and Elwing were true mixed bloods, and were given leave to choose. Elros chose to be a Man and married... whatever her name was, a Man, and begot Mannish children and descendents. Elrond, who chose to be an Elf, married Celebrian, an Elf. Their Children are... Elves. Arwen is given the choice of Luthien and chooses to be numbered among the Men. Elladan and Elrohir have no such choice, they are Elves.

Pick the logic apart people!