WW LX - Mortal Men, doomed to die

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nienna

She made a seer dream list and said who was guilty and who was innocent so far and she said she has a role but she did not say what that role was. By reading her post it can be inferred that she is the Seer but I would believe her more if she said openly that she is the seer. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense but is not the issue: sending a seer list (who was dreamt at which Night) and saying it out aloud "I'm the seer" is the same thing.

Originally Posted by Nienna

I've been getting evil vibes from Sally for some time now and I've been keeping my eye on her but a seer reveal now seems like it would be too risky for one of the wolves.

Not if Lhuna is her mate and she thence would make herself good / make Lhuna look good if she was caught.

Or just plain counting - here I look at Shasta's sudden inspiration of seeing a need to lynch Lhuna toDay.

If we make it wrong toDay - and if the ranger misses the next Night - it will be 5-3 toMorrow and the sheer voting-power of the ringwraiths will carry it as we probably can't hold our ranks as innocents as we don't know the situation unlike they do.

Originally Posted by Shasta

#310 - Nogrod considers Lhuna a "wolf by implication"... which makes me wonder why he's so keen to vote for Sally instead. Why vote a possible wolf when you already admit you have a probable wolf?

Just because of that.

A) a wolf by implication is much less than finding out someone is lying (and not lying for good but looking forwards to kill someone she can't know is innocent or a baddie - unless she is a wolf knowing the other) and therefore - according to that lie - someone might be a wolf "by implication" but the first culprit is the one posing as the seer and claiming to be able to kill when she's not in the position of doing that. Yeah, only I know why she can't be it for sure. But I think I have made ten times the case why a reasonable person should not believe her.
B) Because you - whom I suspect at least as much as I do suspect Sally - seem to defend the liar so consistently.


Just to answer...

Originally Posted by Shasta

#81 - Nogrod thinks that Lhuna could be "a wolf playing it consistently & intelligently", but thinks she deserves to play more than those innocents who do nothing (don't think I didn't catch that, Nog.)

Easy. On Day1 someone actually plays unlike some others who just hunker down and either do not post at all or just post one post saying "let's catch the wolves". I would trade any first kind of player to any latter anytime - whatever their role is.

This is a game and game needs to be played. I don't care if I'm on the winning or the losing side but I want to play. Those who just hide in the shadows make games only lousy.

I don't want to throw a dice. That's soo booring! You can do it at your home and alone.

I want to play werewolf eg. a game of accusation, deceit, suspicion, rhetorics... with others playing the same game.

Catch it now?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Implicitly. You're being contrary; no more, no less.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh, and -

Originally Posted by Nogrod

B) Because you - whom I suspect at least as much as I do suspect Sally - seem to defend the liar so consistently.

How many errors do you count in that statement? I count... two.

1. You suspect me. Why? I can't have given you anything to suspect me on - I haven't been able to post. The only reason you say you suspect me is because you don't like that I haven't been able to participate as much as I normally do, Nogrod, admit it.

2. I defend the liar so consistently. ...Wait, consistently? I make one post offering an alternate explanation as to why Sally has been saying what she's been saying - one, mind you, that you seem to have rejected out-of-hand - and not only do you say I'm "defending" her, but that I'm doing it "consistently"? With one post? Rethink that, maybe, and get back to me.

[Nogrod]

Looking at the insistence of Sally and Shasta - the most suspicious people around to my view - I'm thinking we should not lynch Lhuna.

But I would be happy to vote either of them. A wolf down I'd say.

I'm not saying Lhuna is an innocent, but I think she is a lot less suspicious than these two. (If Sally is a wolf then Lhuna might be one as well - but that's only "by implication", not suspicious as such on that issue - there are other things though but let's think of them later *needs to go to sleep finally*)

EDIT: Blah: I seem to have missed some actual arguing... Sorry. I'll comment on those.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Can I just point out, Nogrod, that you're making absolutely no sense?

For one thing, you call me one of the most suspicious people around - a fact I've already addressed. For another, you think Lhuna innocent (which, in itself, could make sense under specific circumstances), but then you turn right around and say that she could be a wolf, by implication, but only if Sally is a wolf? When Sally has been proclaiming from the rooftops that Lhuna is a wolf?

[Nogrod]

In a comment to your #321 I had basically raised those issues in my #306. Although I know she is not the seer which you naturally can't know.

But I need to ask you Shasta a question.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Sally is an Ordo, lying to protect Nogrod-seer. In this case, you are right; Sally could not know for sure that Lhuna is a wolf.However, there is no reason for Sally to make such a claim without some sort of knowledge. In this case, Lhuna is still much more likely to be a wolf than an innocent simply because it would be A: suicidal and B: insanely stupid for Sally to claim such for no reason (and she's not insanely stupid, nor is she suicidal as far as I know).

Now what kind of knowledge might that be that an ordo would have? What kind of other "knowledge" is there around? Why are you speculating with impossibilities?

Originally Posted by Shasta

Sally is a Wraith, lying to protect another Wraith or attempting to undermine Nogrod-seer. In this case, calling out Lhuna as a Wraith is, in the most probable case, a way to both make Sally look innocent and back up her claim as Seer and sacrifice an already-suspected comrade.

If Sally is a baddie we should lynch the person she claims to be a baddie? Because Sally is not suicidal? If you think Sally is trying to make her mate in crime look bad to make herself look good why don't you say let's lynch Sally first - and let's consider Lhuna then if Sally turns out to be a wolf? Why are yu so keen to lynch the "implication" (eg. whom Sally suspects) over from who actually says something she can't know for sure (unless she is a baddie which should be reason enough to lynch her)?

Also to be noted is that, should Lhuna actually turn out innocent once lynched, we would immediately proceed to lynch Sally the day after and, as I have already said, Sally's not suicidal.

Why the marching order should be this? Sally lies. If she's not a baddie she can't have "any sort of knowledge" on her.

You have been counting, haven't you? If we lynch an innocent toDay you wolves have a much better future, but if we get one of you toDay your future looks very grim indeed. So let's try Lhuna first, right?

Funny, I was quite sure Lhuna was evil a few hours ago, but thanks to your campaign Shasta I'm beginning to think the contrary. Not because you suspect Lhuna but becasue you support Sally so heavily...


Sorry Shasta: I'm still "late" with my arguments. I'll try to catch up...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You seem to be fixated on the fact that Sally's claim to be the Seer is absolute proof of her guilt, Nogrod. I'm supporting her because I think there's a chance she could be an ordo attempting to divert attention from the real Seer, there's no one else around to support her, and you seem to be unwilling to consider any theories but the one you've chosen.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

In answer to your question, Nogrod, I think you should be asking Sally that question, because I have no idea. There ought to be something, though; it's quite poor play if she's accusing Lhuna for no reason. All I'm saying is that there is some reason that Sally is accusing Lhuna so heavily, and that it might not be an evil one.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I think you should be asking Sally that question, because I have no idea.

Which question?

Please mate, this is not the first time. What are you referring to? You can't think others will run through the whole thread to find out what are you asking to answer your questions...

Originally Posted by Shasta

You seem to be fixated on the fact that Sally's claim to be the Seer is absolute proof of her guilt

You don't seem to read the thread now do you? I have said this maybe ten times and this will be the last one.

An ordo pretending to be the seer to save the real one would not place another player into danger by claiming she's a wolf. That's far from absolute, but a fairer deduction than some others.

Had she made her list like this:

Okay, so here's what I know.

Brinn: innocent
Nog: innocent
Legate: wolf
XXX: innocent

I might have believed her trying to help. But now in the place of the XXX she had Lhuna as a wolf which she can't know as she's no seer.

So she wanted to get Lhuna lynched although she didn't know what she is. That is no innocent behaviour.

Lhuna maybe a fellow baddie and this is all an opera trying to fool us. But it's Sally we should lynch first as she's the one who clearly lies / tries to fool us. We should consider Lhuna after that.

If you don't understand this argument now, then don't.

Off to bed.