When the Nazgûl lose their bodily form, what happens to their rings?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Umm I was under the impression the rings were with Sauron, who could command them from afar even when they weren't wearing them... Don't know where I've read that though.

Well I was semi-under that impression too, but in a way it doesn't quite make sense. Because, how come they can be under the power of their rings if they're not wearing them and one could kind of expect the rings to be the things to sort of "keep them together"... weird.

[Inziladun]

I think I recall a quote from UT (don't have the book handy) that implies Sauron could be certain of their loyalty because they were enslaved by their rings, which he held. I think that was from the chapter The Hunt for the Ring.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think I recall a quote from UT (don't have the book handy) that implies Sauron could be certain of their loyalty because they were enslaved by their rings, which he held. I think that was from the chapter The Hunt for the Ring.

Now phrased that way, it sounds very familiar.

But hmm... I wonder if Tolkien came up with that explanation merely because the problem of the disappearing rings would otherwise be too difficult...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Now phrased that way, it sounds very familiar.

But hmm... I wonder if Tolkien came up with that explanation merely because the problem of the disappearing rings would otherwise be too difficult...

Indeed, it is there. And no idea about Tolkien's motives, but I know he is sort of ambiguous about that - Gandalf (or Elrond? Or somebody, simply) says "Nine the Nazgul keep". Which sounds as if they have them. I have heard attempts to sort of talk one out of it, but not that they sound very convincing (not even by their logic).

[Boromir88]

Sauron possessed the 9 rings, as some of the 7, as you correctly recall.

Unfinished Tales:

...mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held

...were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held

And in LOTR:

...the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed

You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine

My thoughts as to why he had them, is what Tolkien wrote in Letter 246 (another place where I believe Tolkien mentions Sauron held the 9 rings). And that is Sauron had a way to control his Nazgul, even without the One Ring. In Letter 246, Tolkien sets up a hypothetical scenario about Frodo the "ring-lord" claiming the One Ring, in the Sammath Naur, but the Nazgul would still take Frodo from Mount Doom and bring him to Sauron. As it was their 9 rings that that Nazgul were enthralled to, not the One.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In Letter 246, Tolkien sets up a hypothetical scenario about Frodo the "ring-lord" claiming the One Ring, in the Sammath Naur, but the Nazgul would still take Frodo from Mount Doom and bring him to Sauron. As it was their 9 rings that that Nazgul were enthralled to, not the One.

Yeah, that's what I heard as part of that argument I mention. However, there is still this "Nine the Nazgul keep" sentence from FotR, which just makes a bit of a mess in it, in my opinion.

[Pitchwife]

I don't think the quotes from UT and FotR are irreconcilable. The Nazgûl keeping the Nine is what the Wise of the West may have supposed to be true (wasn't it Gandalf who said that?), whereas Sauron holding them seems to be an auctorial statement by Tolkien himself, who knew a little bit more of the matter than his characters.

Apart from that, Sauron himself had no problem wearing the One in spirit form when his body perished in the Downfall of Númenór - maybe he taught the Nazgûl the trick.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I don't think the quotes from UT and FotR are irreconcilable. The Nazgûl keeping the Nine is what the Wise of the West may have supposed to be true (wasn't it Gandalf who said that?), whereas Sauron holding them seems to be an auctorial statement by Tolkien himself, who knew a little bit more of the matter than his characters.

Yes, Gandalf or Elrond. The problem is, that the very same Gandalf says at another point something different which seems to imply that Sauron has the Rings, and not the Nine. Well, what could he know anyway - Sauron may have redistributed the Rings in any way he wished - but still, it's an interesting controversy. I like it, because it opens more room for speculation.

Apart from that, Sauron himself had no problem wearing the One in spirit form when his body perished in the Downfall of Númenór - maybe he taught the Nazgûl the trick.

Well, but I guess there is a difference between one (really powerful) Maia and a Ringwraith. And especially when water is involved...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The essential problem of course was that after the end of the Second Age Sauron *could not* have controlled the Nine, had they possessed their own rings. They would have been free agents, bound to none but themselves. So I think we have to assume that once they were fully "wraithed," some time in the Second Age, Sauron used the power of the Ruling Ring to force the Nazgul to give their Rings back.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well I was semi-under that impression too, but in a way it doesn't quite make sense. Because, how come they can be under the power of their rings if they're not wearing them and one could kind of expect the rings to be the things to sort of "keep them together"... weird.

There has been a lot of discussing about that here some time ago (I don't know, about a year or more?), in one discussion where Yours Truly participated too (I don't recall the name of the discussion anymore, but perhaps one could look for it... anyway, it was probably not the only one concerning that topic), and I think the conclusion was - even though I did not quite like it - that the Rings indeed were with Sauron. Or, at least (and now that is the question) by the end of the Third Age. Of course, before the Nazgul-men became Ringwraith, they were wearing them, and eventually went to Sauron... if we relate it to your WW narration, I would presume that by that time apparently they were already in the service of Sauron, but seemingly were still corporeal. Hm, thinking of that, perhaps it won't be such a problem for an incorporeal RW to carry away one Ring of Power... perhaps such a strongly "magical" (used in lack for better terms, even though it is hardly appropriate to use that in terms of M-E) item would have been possible to "catch" even by a person who is in the Wraith-world only? Though, that won't make much of a sense. After all, what were RW? Normally, they were seemingly "corporeal" or "semi-corporeal" (clad, carrying swords...), and when they were "killed" (like by Bruinen or in your narration), they became "completely incorporeal" and couldn't really do anything until their master... well, in computer game terms, until they respawned

Okay, but as for the actual question, I basically said what I think - logically, it seems that when the Nazgul were searching for Baggins, Sauron had the Rings with himself. That would also point to the fact that WK, when killed, didn't have his Ring with him when he died on Pelennor, thus, no Éomer could just come and say "hey, look, what a nice Ring lying in this pile of clothes" (ah yes, I think that was in the discussion I mentioned too).

Though if you asked just for personal feelings, all logic aside, I always thought the Nazgul have their Rings with them, and they can feel each other this way, use some powers, are controlled by Sauron etc. Of course, that would face questions like the one you put in front of us.