When the Nazgûl lose their bodily form, what happens to their rings? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 05-19-2009, 02:09 PM

Sauron possessed the 9 rings, as some of the 7, as you correctly recall.

Unfinished Tales:

Quote:

...mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held

Quote:

...were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held

And in LOTR:

Quote:

...the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed

Quote:

You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine

My thoughts as to why he had them, is what Tolkien wrote in Letter 246 (another place where I believe Tolkien mentions Sauron held the 9 rings). And that is Sauron had a way to control his Nazgul, even without the One Ring. In Letter 246, Tolkien sets up a hypothetical scenario about Frodo the "ring-lord" claiming the One Ring, in the Sammath Naur, but the Nazgul would still take Frodo from Mount Doom and bring him to Sauron. As it was their 9 rings that that Nazgul were enthralled to, not the One.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 05-19-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In Letter 246, Tolkien sets up a hypothetical scenario about Frodo the "ring-lord" claiming the One Ring, in the Sammath Naur, but the Nazgul would still take Frodo from Mount Doom and bring him to Sauron. As it was their 9 rings that that Nazgul were enthralled to, not the One.

Yeah, that's what I heard as part of that argument I mention. However, there is still this "Nine the Nazgul keep" sentence from FotR, which just makes a bit of a mess in it, in my opinion.

Pitchwife · 05-20-2009, 10:32 AM

I don't think the quotes from UT and FotR are irreconcilable. The Nazgûl keeping the Nine is what the Wise of the West may have supposed to be true (wasn't it Gandalf who said that?), whereas Sauron holding them seems to be an auctorial statement by Tolkien himself, who knew a little bit more of the matter than his characters.

Apart from that, Sauron himself had no problem wearing the One in spirit form when his body perished in the Downfall of Númenór - maybe he taught the Nazgûl the trick.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 05-20-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I don't think the quotes from UT and FotR are irreconcilable. The Nazgûl keeping the Nine is what the Wise of the West may have supposed to be true (wasn't it Gandalf who said that?), whereas Sauron holding them seems to be an auctorial statement by Tolkien himself, who knew a little bit more of the matter than his characters.

Yes, Gandalf or Elrond. The problem is, that the very same Gandalf says at another point something different which seems to imply that Sauron has the Rings, and not the Nine. Well, what could he know anyway - Sauron may have redistributed the Rings in any way he wished - but still, it's an interesting controversy. I like it, because it opens more room for speculation.

Quote:

Apart from that, Sauron himself had no problem wearing the One in spirit form when his body perished in the Downfall of Númenór - maybe he taught the Nazgûl the trick.

Well, but I guess there is a difference between one (really powerful) Maia and a Ringwraith. And especially when water is involved...

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-20-2009, 03:06 PM

The essential problem of course was that after the end of the Second Age Sauron *could not* have controlled the Nine, had they possessed their own rings. They would have been free agents, bound to none but themselves. So I think we have to assume that once they were fully "wraithed," some time in the Second Age, Sauron used the power of the Ruling Ring to force the Nazgul to give their Rings back.

Boromir88 · 05-21-2009, 01:02 AM

It probably would have helped if I was more specific with the quotes, but do to my lack of a LOTR book at the moment, I found those from another thread here...

If I recall correctly, the 1st LOTR one Gandalf tells Frodo in The Shadow of the Past.

The 2nd one is Galadriel in The Mirror of Galadriel.

But don't hold me to that.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 05-21-2009, 06:38 PM

I'm thinking that maybe if Sauron had the nine rings then he would have an easier time controlling the Wraiths because they would always want to have their rings. What I mean is, the Wraiths would always want to come back to their rings in hopes that Sauron, being the nice, generous guy that he is, would give them back. Maybe the wraiths actually trusted Sauron. Maybe Sauron lied to them, a second time, and they were decieved into giving them up, he told them he would give them their rings back.

As to how the Nazgul would find each other, they had pagers.

05-20-2009, 10:32 AM	#3
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	I don't think the quotes from UT and FotR are irreconcilable. The Nazgûl keeping the Nine is what the Wise of the West may have supposed to be true (wasn't it Gandalf who said that?), whereas Sauron holding them seems to be an auctorial statement by Tolkien himself, who knew a little bit more of the matter than his characters. Apart from that, Sauron himself had no problem wearing the One in spirit form when his body perished in the Downfall of Númenór - maybe he taught the Nazgûl the trick. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

05-20-2009, 03:06 PM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	The essential problem of course was that after the end of the Second Age Sauron could not have controlled the Nine, had they possessed their own rings. They would have been free agents, bound to none but themselves. So I think we have to assume that once they were fully "wraithed," some time in the Second Age, Sauron used the power of the Ruling Ring to force the Nazgul to give their Rings back. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

05-21-2009, 01:02 AM	#6
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	It probably would have helped if I was more specific with the quotes, but do to my lack of a LOTR book at the moment, I found those from another thread here... If I recall correctly, the 1st LOTR one Gandalf tells Frodo in The Shadow of the Past. The 2nd one is Galadriel in The Mirror of Galadriel. But don't hold me to that. __________________ Fenris Penguin

05-21-2009, 06:38 PM	#7
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	I'm thinking that maybe if Sauron had the nine rings then he would have an easier time controlling the Wraiths because they would always want to have their rings. What I mean is, the Wraiths would always want to come back to their rings in hopes that Sauron, being the nice, generous guy that he is, would give them back. Maybe the wraiths actually trusted Sauron. Maybe Sauron lied to them, a second time, and they were decieved into giving them up, he told them he would give them their rings back. As to how the Nazgul would find each other, they had pagers. __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.