WW LXI: Grimm Tales

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I had been wondering if Izzy had just messed up (along with the Seer), but I see she was not the target of the wolves.

At least the Seer's still around, hopefully with a lot of information.

[Gaurcrist]

Lynch tp! I say we should lynch tp. Well, as I explained before, he is probably bad, and if he is lynched and wasn't bad, at least we'll be rid of a malicious player. Who is with me!?

[Gaurcrist]

Now, I will vote phantom for reasons I explained before.

++Phantom

[Inziladun]

So they left Izzy alone, even after her last minute revelation. Why? Even if she was lying and just trying to save herself, that seems an awful risk for the baddies to take. After all, the seer and the ranger are in communication. And phantom- taking her word for it so quickly? How could he be so sure?
Izzy needs to do some fast talking and come up with something good. I echo Eomer in thinking the seer would be most helpful today as well.

edit- x'd with Gaur-no one can question his consistency.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Eh, regardless of phantom's true motives, his public image was the same as mine - and if it was a trap to kill another innocent (as it looks like) then I fell for it too. Yeah, I was a bit unsure of Izzy's reveal but sometimes you have to make a decision.

Gaurcrist is very much on the radar now. He might have been advised to cause some trouble at the start of the day to distract the village (or is the Robber Bridegroom). Again, regardless of phantom's true nature, Gaurcrist's early action isn't helpful.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Gaurcrist is very much on the radar now. He might have been advised to cause some trouble at the start of the day to distract the village (or is the Robber Bridegroom). Again, regardless of phantom's true nature, Gaurcrist's early action isn't helpful.

I have to agree. I can understand (somewhat) the animosity there, but the single-mindedness really hasn't been useful.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I find the phantom to be a pleasant and respectable member of this forum. Usually, it's other people who lose control around him - see his signature for proof.

Gaurcrist has obviously been seriously affected by the phantom; either that, or it's an intricate ruse cooked up by the both of them.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I find the phantom to be a pleasant and respectable member of this forum. Usually, it's other people who lose control around him - see his signature for proof.

Indeed.

[Gaurcrist]

Gaurcrist has obviously been seriously affected by the phantom; either that, or it's an intricate ruse cooked up by the both of them.

Hahahahahahahaha! Like either of those would happen.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Agan

I still don't understand that. Care to explain?

This isn't hard, Aganzir. You said that Gwath's suspicion of you led you to believe he was the seer. If you're not evil, he wouldn't suspect you. If he wasn't right, you wouldn't label him with the Gifted role that's more or less infallible about such things.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Eh, regardless of phantom's true motives, his public image was the same as mine - and if it was a trap to kill another innocent (as it looks like) then I fell for it too. Yeah, I was a bit unsure of Izzy's reveal but sometimes you have to make a decision.

Same here. We only had a few minutes to decide in... (Sorry, Shasta ).

I'm wondering... If Izzy is a wolf, what is Aganzir? Could that have been a wolf-on-wolf thing yesterDay?

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Gaurcrist is very much on the radar now. He might have been advised to cause some trouble at the start of the day to distract the village (or is the Robber Bridegroom). Again, regardless of phantom's true nature, Gaurcrist's early action isn't helpful.

We can refine this a bit: Gaurcrist has repeatedly voted the phantom for no particular reason except that he's just sure he's a baddie. Gaurcrist is still alive. So I should say the odds are heavily against tp being a wolf– unless a.) Gaurcrist is one too and it's all some weird (and badly executed) plot to make tp look good or something or b.) the wolves have let Gaurcrist live because they think he's the Robber Bridegroom.

Place your bets now!

the phantom is a wolf and Gaurcrist is innocent. (50-1)

They're in it together. (12-1)

They're both innocent. (12-1)

Gaurcrist is the Robber Bridegroom. (8-1)

"It's a safe bet with Auntie Nerwen!"

EDIT: X'd since Eomer at 535.

[Gaurcrist]

Gaurcrist is the Robber Bridegroom. (8-1)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Gaurcrist

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Care to explain why that's so funny?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

Care to explain why that's so funny?

Maybe Nerwen got it right.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

Care to explain why that's so funny?

Because he's secretly the phantom, playing against himself for laughs.

Ironic timing...

[Gaurcrist]

Care to explain why that's so funny?

Because it is so amazing that anybody would think that I'm the Robber Bridegroom. Funny as well.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I had been wondering if Izzy had just messed up (along with the Seer), but I see she was not the target of the wolves.

Either the wolves thought she was protecting herself or wanted to make her a lynch target today, or she is one of them. Gwath's death doesn't surprise me much, though - the way he and Izzy started suspecting me almost simultaneously looked like they had been communicating with each other. The wolves probably thought they'd get the seer (or, alternatively, if Izzy is a wolf, wanted to make it look like they had been trying to target the seer).

So, Izzy. What am I? (I'd prefer you didn't state my exact role aloud here, you know, but you can always tell if I'm innocent or not. )

Also - if Izzy is not the ranger, the real ranger should probably stay quiet about her identity. The seer knows who she is and that should be enough for now.

By the way, if Reddie hasn't been turned, it's 5-8 now (and might get worse very quickly if Cinderella has been too loud about her secret love). If we don't get a baddie today and there's no ranger save/hunter kill in the night, it'll be 5-6 tomorrow, after which, well... Of course we can hope that communication between the wolves and the Bridegroom doesn't work and they're not aware of one another, but we can't count on that.
If Reddie is a wolf already and we don't know about it, then we have practically lost.

I am going through yesterday now, there are some things I want to comment on.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Gwath's death doesn't surprise me much, though - the way he and Izzy started suspecting me almost simultaneously looked like they had been communicating with each other. The wolves probably thought they'd get the seer (or, alternatively, if Izzy is a wolf, wanted to make it look like they had been trying to target the seer).

I'm thinking there is no way Aganzir says this unless Izzy is a wolf. No way. It points out Aganzir as a wolf.

Then I think: if Izzy did just mess up yesterday, Aganzir is cleverly making sure there's no way of Izzy getting the village back on her side: Aganzir had Gwath killed, and everything is pointed to a set-up of an innocent Aganzir by Wolf Izzy.

Either way, one of them is going today, and I wouldn't rule out wolf-on-wolf.

[Isabellkya]

How clever of you Miss Aganzir. You know I am not one of you.
Do I know your role? Nay, not at this time.
I still think you are Nefarious.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

How clever of you Miss Aganzir. You know I am not one of you.
Do I know your role? Nay, not at this time.
I still think you are Nefarious.

You also said that about Shasta, and that didn't turn out so well.
At this point, my conclusion is that either you or Agan, or both, are bad.

edit- x'd with Fea

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Gwath's death doesn't surprise me much, though - the way he and Izzy started suspecting me almost simultaneously looked like they had been communicating with each other. The wolves probably thought they'd get the seer

Good grief. Who needs a seer to notice the fact that Aganzir just admitted she's evil.

The only way two people simultaneously suspecting somebody makes any difference to bad guys is if that somebody is a bad guy. Makes no difference the role of the two: the guilty conscience speaks for itself.

++Aganzir

Originally Posted by Izzy

Well, if you are shocked it were not true - it implies you believed they were for some reason. If you believed they were dreamed of, then you believed my Ranger claim. If you believed my Ranger claim, then why didn't you change your vote accordingly? Go ahead.

Easy, Iz: at the time I didn't actually believe (for certain) your Ranger reveal. I'd been thinking Robber Bridegroom for you. So when you revealed, I started to doubt myself, and then when you revealed that you knew absolutely jack (for certain, at least) about the roles of these people you were trying to get killed, I became rather more confident that you were behaving cobblerishly, trying to deflect attention from somebody, I just didn't know - and didn't have time to figure out - who.

In any case, whether you're bridegroom or not, you obviously scared Aganzir.

Originally Posted by Eomer

I'm thinking there is no way Aganzir says this unless Izzy is a wolf. No way. It points out Aganzir as a wolf.

I'm surprised I didn't think of this. I'd made it to:

Izzy = Bridegroom, Agan = spooked wolf
Izzy = Ranger, Agan = rightfully scared wolf
Izzy = Bluffing something, Agan = Robber Bridegroom trying to... I dunno...

But wolf on wolf is a twist I need to think about.

At least I'm finally confident about somebody's role.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Good grief. Who needs a seer to notice the fact that Aganzir just admitted she's evil.

The only way two people simultaneously suspecting somebody makes any difference to bad guys is if that somebody is a bad guy. Makes no difference the role of the two: the guilty conscience speaks for itself.

I don't understand what you're talking about. When I read through the day in the night, I thought it was possible Izzy was the ranger and was just testing Shasta & me (or others, if she was convinced we were guilty). The way she and Gwath started suspecting me at the same time (and with very little reason) made me think they had had a private chat and judged me evil. Consequently, I thought Gwath could be the seer.

And sorry if I'm somehow slower than you others, but it was only Izzy's posting today that really convinced me she's evil.

edit: xed with Nerwen. Could someone explain to me what that's about?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan (underlining mine)

I don't understand what you're talking about. When I read through the day in the night, I thought it was possible Izzy was the ranger and was just testing Shasta & me (or others, if she was convinced we were guilty). The way she and Gwath started suspecting me at the same time (and with very little reason) made me think they had had a private chat and judged me evil. Consequently, I thought Gwath could be the seer.

And sorry if I'm somehow slower than you others, but it was only Izzy's posting today that really convinced me she's evil.

Right, Agan, have a look at the underlined passage and tell me something. If you judge that someone who thinks you are evil is the Seer, what does that make you? (Clue: not innocent.)

[Nerwen]

Okay... in the interests of being perfectly fair, I guess Agan could mean that the wolves thought that Gwath and Izzy (supposedly the Seer and Ranger) were pm-ing about her during the Day without the Seer having dreamed her yet, and it was just the fact that they seemed to be communicating that alerted the wolves– not that it was about Aganzir in particular. (Am I making sense?)

Hmmn... All well and good... but it's just not the way an innocent thinks, in my opinion.

Also, she's making a great show of suspecting Izzy toDay... but look how neatly that argument exonerates her.

EDIT: fixed bolding.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay... in the interests of being perfectly fair, I suppose Agan could mean that the wolves thought that Gwath and Izzy (supposedly the Seer and Ranger) were pm-ing about her during the Day without the Seer having dreamed her yet, and it was just the fact that they seemed to be communicating that alerted the wolves– not that it was about Aganzir in particular. (Am I making sense?)

Yes that's a fair point - but on the second quote, the one I posted in my last post, she says she thought Gwath was the Seer, which is kind of interesting...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Right, Agan, have a look at the underlined passage and tell me something. If you judge that someone who thinks you are evil is the Seer, what does that make you? (Clue: not innocent.)

Okay I admit that looks funny (I'm seriously irritated but your comment managed to make me laugh). The point was that I thought Izzy and Gwath had been communicating, and the seer & the ranger could communicate.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay... in the interests of being perfectly fair, I guess Agan could mean that the wolves thought that Gwath and Izzy (supposedly the Seer and Ranger) were pm-ing about her during the Day without the Seer having dreamed her yet, and it was just the fact that they seemed to be communicating that alerted the wolves– not that it was about Aganzir in particular. (Am I making sense?)

Either that, or they wanted to find someone whose death would take our eyes off Izzy. In this light the latter sounds a hundred times more likely than the former, and they seem to have succeeded in that damn well. I just don't understand why she pretty much confessed now if their intention was to keep her alive, unless she's the Bridegroom.

This is annoying me to no end, if we don't get a baddie today our chances are going to be very slim tomorrow, and you are talking about lynching me!

Originally Posted by Nerwen

but it's just not the way an innocent thinks, in my opinion.

I fail to see why. I think mainly about myself and compare I'm a self-centered player because my innocence is the only thing I can be sure about (and I'm a self-centered person because I'm just so awesome).
So, Nerwen, tell me what is the way an innocent thinks. Go ahead. Tell me why you think Gwath was killed. I request everybody tell me why Gwath died. That will not only reveal to us how an innocent thinks (we just take the theory most people agree on and declare it AN INNOCENT WAY OF THINKING), but it will also be very helpful since it gets people talking.

And I am being serious.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, she's making a great show of suspecting Izzy toDay... but look how neatly that argument exonerates her.

Where did that come from? I didn't say anything definite about her before she started posting today.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

she says she thought Gwath was the Seer, which is kind of interesting...

Yes and Izzy said the seer hadn't dreamed of me so I don't see where the problem is.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I explained my Kath vote, and no, it wasn't that solid of a case, but it was down to her and Mith and I made a decision.

No it was not particularly the vote but the fact that your suspicion of her looked wolfish!

It's pretty interesting Greenie doesn't find Izzy (who practically confessed earlier today) suspicious but wavers on her. Remember the wolves can afford to be bold at this point, there are so few days left if everything goes according to their will.

Really this is ridiculous.

[Mirandir]

I'm around but I'm going to wait to see how a few things play out before I post anything of significance. That and my brain doesn't function without food and pizza isn't here yet.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan

This is annoying me to no end, if we don't get a baddie today our chances are going to be very slim tomorrow, and you are talking about lynching me!

Come on, sweetheart. If you cooled down a bit you'd see that the things you've said do make you seem very suspicious. You, too, would get suspicious of such comments. Of course if you're innocent then it isn't reasonable for us to talk about lynching you, but just don't act as if you had no idea how come anyone could suspect cute little you.

Originally Posted by Agan

It's pretty interesting Greenie doesn't find Izzy (who practically confessed earlier today) suspicious but wavers on her. Remember the wolves can afford to be bold at this point, there are so few days left if everything goes according to their will.

Practically confessed? If that's true then I must've missed that. Anyway, one reason for me to waver on Izzy is that if you are a wolf it makes me wonder whether the thing the two of you are playing at is too dangerous to be wolf-on-wolf - but then, you said it yourself, wolves can afford to be bold at this point.

[McCaber]

First off, I'm sorry about not being there yesterDay. I need to remember my on and off days better.

So it looks rather dire for our humble village right now. I won't have a lot of time toDay, either, so I've got to go with

++Aganzir

I should be back later to take a look at a few more people. But it should be pretty clear that we found at least one wolf today.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Gwath's death doesn't surprise me much, though - the way he and Izzy started suspecting me almost simultaneously looked like they had been communicating with each other. The wolves probably thought they'd get the seer (or, alternatively, if Izzy is a wolf, wanted to make it look like they had been trying to target the seer).

Agan:

The wolves probably thought they'd get the Seer, agreed. If they thought Gwath was the Seer then it's pretty clear that his totally unexplained and out-of-the-blue vote for you had something to do with it.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

First of all, there is the fact that I still find your comments about Izzy and Gwath terribly furry, and like I said your guilt would make Izzy's a bit less probable.

A suspicious comment versus blatant lying, posing as a gifted & throwing two players for lynching? What if a few people had decided to vote for me instead of Shasta and I had been the seer? That'd be funny, wouldn't it? (No I'm not the seer, don't worry, but Izzy was pretty reckless there).

Originally Posted by Green

There has been no counter-claim, though it's possible that the real Ranger - or let alone the Seer - wants to lay low for some time still. Be that as it may, it would still be a huge risk for a wolf to claim as Ranger in a game where claiming as Ranger pretty much reveals his/her identity to two players instead of one.

Indeed and that's why it doesn't make any sense to me! However she herself said that she wasn't telling the truth and I think at least in that we can believe her. Also, why would the ranger reveal herself now just to ensure Izzy is lynched?
Actually I would quite prefer she did it, there's not much time left (gosh that seems to be my favourite phrase today... But then, it's true!).

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

If they thought Gwath was the Seer then it's pretty clear that his totally unexplained and out-of-the-blue vote for you had something to do with it.

No, to me it isn't. I suggested they thought so because there seemed to be a connection between Gwath and Izzy, both of their change of mind about me was so quick and weird. (I am tired with repeating myself!)
And according to Izzy-ranger the seer hadn't dreamed of me so that sort of ruins your theory, too.

[A Little Green]

I'm sorry I wasn't able to play yesterDay, but I'll try to make amends for it toDay. I didn't get half the stuff that was said yesterDay, I've a few comments on things that stood out to me in one way or another.

Originally Posted by Aganchirp

I'm still flip-flopping on Greenie. The way she flip-flopped on Cab & Shasta looked innocent but her posting near the deadline & her vote looked somehow... too calculating.

Well of course I would be calculating! I am interested in the outcome of the vote, I don't want to make a throwaway vote, and therefore I'm interested in knowing what other people are planning to do and calculate the possible outcomes of different options in my head. Unless they have fellows on the chopping block I'd say it's more the wolves who have no real need to calculate.

Originally Posted by Mira

Case against Fea starting Day 2

Originally Posted by Mira

Now this statement seems innocent enough. However, nothing that seems innocent with Fea ever is unless she's a baddie.

A couple of people have mentioned that Mira's case against Fea was quite flawed. What bothered me more was that she seemed to have decided beforehand that she suspects Fea and was therefore determined to find fur in Fea's every statement. Now people who just decide to suspect someone and then pursue that suspicion determinedly smell of wolf to me.


EDIT: x-ed with Agan and Eomer

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

Also, if you get the chance, Green, could you explain your Mith vote to me? I have written down that you said you didn't like any of the available candidates (you named Mith, Boro, and Eomer) but then you voted for Mith even though Izzy was available as an option, and you had not listed her as a bad lynch choice, where as you had mentioned Mith.

Yes we can! (Errr I meant yes, I can. I'm on a humourous mood today, it seems. ) So. My Mith vote. I did not mention Izzy in the post where I mentioned lynch candidates I don't like because she wasn't much voted for at that time. I did mention later on that I had nothing on Izzy and wouldn't like to vote for her. Just for clarity's sake, here are my posts from Day 2 that consider Mith and Izzy and voting.

Originally Posted by me on Day 2

I'm inclined to think Boro innocentish so I'd rather not see him go - but then, I'm not sure I'd like to vote Mith or Eomer either. There are sure to be better candidates!

Izzy? I'm not convinced about her either. How many still to vote? What are you planning to do? I wouldn't like to cast a throwaway vote.

I have nothing on Izzy, I don't know about Mith, and I don't suspect Boro. This is not nice.

++ Mithalwen

Because I suspect her more than Boro or Izzy.

So, basically, I was sort of torn about Mith (she struck me both more guilty and more innocent) and had absolutely nothing on Izzy. I concluded that Izzy could be just anything, whereas Mith was probably at least not a gifted (ie. seer or ranger) since I thought a gifted would not behave quite the way she did. Obviously, as you can see on the time stamp of my vote, I didn't have the time to make long explanations of what I was thinking.

Hope I made sense.


EDIT: x-ed with Inzy and Eomer

[Isabellkya]

Oh dear Village. That would be the conundrum would it not? Did I drink the wine proffered to me, or did I drink the wine in Their cup?

I know what you did.

I know you do. But They don't. They know not whether I ate cakes of my own making to counteract the poison or simply drank the sweet beverage. Nor do they know which cup I drank from.

It doesn't matter which cup you drank from.

Oh, but it does!
...........




Anywhoo. I don't believe I ever claimed dream results were in on Aganzir and Shasta. I said I had an epiphany - very different. Which I apologize Shasta - I seemed to have been in a destructive mood, or something.

To the best of my knowledge, I can't recall ever fake claiming here - I don't see why I would start now. I suppose if I was for sure to be in the noose yesterDay (which I wasn't), and was feeling particularly suicidal I suppose.

Which begs the question, as to why some people whom were around yesterDay at deadline did not try to save me after I claimed. But, professed 'shocked' sentiments when I said Aganzir and Shasta had not been dreamed.

Well, if you are shocked it were not true - it implies you believed they were for some reason. If you believed they were dreamed of, then you believed my Ranger claim. If you believed my Ranger claim, then why didn't you change your vote accordingly? Go ahead.



If you want to lynch me, I would only ask that you wait until a bit later. Or go and do it in the next ten minutes. Otherwise, I'm leaving in ten minutes - well thirteen to be precise and will be gone all day. Not a holiday for me today.


X'd since Eomer's #538.