Turin=Achilles?

[Hakon]

Aragorn is somewhat similar to King Arthur and Gandalf to Merlin.

[Pitchwife]

Hakon: brief but true. Let me elaborate:
Aragorn and King Arthur - the obvious parallel that comes to my mind is that both of them had a famous sword which represented their royal legacy and their right to kingdom.
(À propos, and elaborating on a side-thought in my last post: it might be interesting to consider which mythological motifs Tolkien did not use; e.g. no sword retrieved by the hero from a lake, stone, anvil, tree or other receptacle reluctant to release the blade. Might tell us a lot about the difference between Tolkien and post-Tolkien commercial fantasy.)
Also, both Aragorn and Arthur came into their kingdom after a long time in rather infamous positions (although in different phases of their lives) - Aragorn as the Ranger Strider, Arthur as Sir Ector's ward.
Finally, both of them represent an archetype of the ideal King that appeals even to die-hard democrats like myself (but that would be another topic).

Gandalf and Merlin - yep, the two archetypal wizards of world literature; I defy everybody to find a third! And both of them act as counselors to the Ideal King (see above). (Unfortunately, there's no Vivian/Nimue for Gandalf; but fortunately, this means he doesn't have to spend idle centuries banished into a haythorn hedge...)

But what Tuor is aiming at in this thread is parallels between Tolkien's Legendarium and classical=Greek/Roman mythology. The Norse and Celtic influences on Tolkien are quite well known and have been discussed any number of times (not that it can hurt to rehash them once more, especially the Kalevala connection), unlike parallels between Middle Earth and ancient mediterranean mythology, which are still largely terra incognita.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

pitchwife's comments on Galdalf/Merlin are interesting.
I vaguely feel like there should be/are other parallels.

As to the classical, specifically Greek, influences on Tolkiien,
there are some intereting suggestions in HC's Biography:

Already when beginning to learn Greek he had
entertained himself by making up Greek-style words

and

He ('Dickie' Reynolds) was not particularly successful
(in teaching English literature) with Ronald Tolkien, who preferred
Latin and Greek poetry to Milton and Keats.

Someone who was so committed to the history (real or created)
behind languages might well have been more influenced by
Latin and Greek vis-a-vis Scandinavian/northern European then
is generally thought to be the case, especially since said influence
was strongest in his schoolboy years (obviously important
formulatively) then college/university years with Finnish and
such.
Just a thought.

[Hakon]

Also with Arthur and Aragorn you have the guiding figure. For Arthur it was Merlin and for Aragorn it was Elrond early on.

Also Numenor is similar to Atlantis. Both were like the ideal societies and both got sunk into the ocean. Both had a sort of divine ruler, for Atlantis it was Poseidon and for Numenor it was Elros.

The Battle of Helm's Deep is also comparable to Troy only in this case the roles are sort of reversed. The good is defending in this case rather than attacking.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hakon
The Battle of Helm's Deep is also comparable to Troy only in this case the roles are sort of reversed. The good is defending in this case rather than attacking.QUOTE]

Granted, from the point of view of Homer and his audience the "good"
are attacking, but I think that (other then doofus Paris) the Trojans
may be seen by most readers as the good guys. At minimum, talk
about overreaction by the Greeks! I mean, for one babe!

[Hakon]

That is true. But Helen was the most beautiful woman ever according Homer and the lust of men is very powerful. The one thing that has always bothered me about Paris is that his real name was Alexander and that is my name. Sorry that I am off topic. Anyway Goldberry is sort of portrayed as the most beautiful woman in Middle Earth, I am sure a war could have been started over her.

Also it is perspective like you said with which side is good.

[Morthoron]

Turin may well be a hero in the formula of a classic Greek tragedy, however, the parallels favor Kullervo rather than Achilles as far as the story goes.

There are many Tolkien characters who are near perfect examples of heroes from Greek tragedies -- in addition to Turin, Boromir for instance. They exhibit the four principal characteristics of a tragic hero: 1. the character is of noble birth, 2. He has a tragic flaw (hamartia), 3. He has a reversal (a catastrophe), and 4. he undergoes a catharthis, or recognition, a realization of his own flaw that caused his reversal. And, as is usual in Greek tragedy, his recognition comes too late to prevent his succumbing to the reversal.

But again, Turin's story is essentially derived from the Kalevala, and the self-destructive, often berserk character Kullervo, right down to being born in bondage, unknowingly seducing his sister and dying on a sword that willingly takes his life (and says so).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Another tragic hero of Greek mythology who may be compared to Túrin is Oedipus. I vividly recall seeing a performance of both stories as drama by the Greek Tolkien Society in Birmingham, highlighting the parallels between the two* as victims of an overwhelming fate, unable to escape even when flying from it. Both unknowingly married a member of their family incestuously, a situation which resulted in their respective deaths at their own hands.

This has been noted by others previously; for a start, check out Michael Martinez' comments.


*...who were played by the same actor, thus emphasizing the parallels even more.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Hakon

The Battle of Helm's Deep is also comparable to Troy only in this case the roles are sort of reversed. The good is defending in this case rather than attacking.

Hm? I never saw the Trojans as evil. It was Achilles, after all, who desecrated Hector's body, and Odysseus who resorted to underhandedness.

Also, the survivors of Troy, led by Aeneas, went on to found Rome.

[Hakon]

The Romans were not exactly saints. I just always viewed the Greeks as good and the Trojans as evil. It was Paris that made me see them as evil and the Greeks as good.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And in a way Paris was between a rock, a rock, and a
hard place- what with the three vain goddesses starting
the whole thing. It is interesting that the theme of fated
destiny in the Trojan War (essentially effecting the actions of
both humans and gods) is only (I believe) directly used by
Tolkien with the Children of Hurin, which makes it somewhat
discordant to the general ethos of Middle-earth.

Elsewhere in the tales he seems, to me, to effectively
combine free will and Iluvatar seeing that his plan
for Middle-earth and its peoples, by allowing evil to have
the possibility to "win" for a time but eventually redress
a given situation (for example, Morgoth having a nice winning
streak in Beleriand). And I think somewhere Gandalf muses
that he will not have totally failed if anything fair lives in
Middle-earth (or something to that effect).

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Hakon

The Romans were not exactly saints. I just always viewed the Greeks as good and the Trojans as evil. It was Paris that made me see them as evil and the Greeks as good.

Rome was no more or less a villain than Athens, Sparta, Mycene, or Thebes.

Paris may have started the whole mess between the Greeks and Trojans, but if you read closely I think you'll actually find more admirable traits among the Trojans.

-Agamemnon was a thoroughly deplorable man, who killed his own daughter, Iphigenia, to appease the goddess, Artemis. You see, Artemis was angry about some slight and was preventing the Greeks from sailing from Aulis. Agamemnon just had to get this ball rolling and he wasn't going to let anything silly like his daughter's life get in the way of conquering Troy, by thunder. So, a quick knife to his daughter's chest, Artemis was satisfied, and the Greeks set sail.

-Achilles had a grand mal hissy fit over Agamemnon keeping the woman, Briseis, after Achilles had won her as a war prize. So, like any good commander with victory in mind, Achilles withdrew his men and sulked- for a year, if I remember correctly.

-I've already mentioned how victory over Hector wasn't enough for Achilles. When you kill the (ahem) "special friend" of an invulnerable, manic depressive Greek warrior, even if it's mistaken identity, you can apparently expect to have your corpse desecrated as further revenge.

-Odysseus was actually the one who defeated Troy, and he had to use skullduggery instead of good old-fashioned brawn and elan.

"Good guys"? I think not.

[Hakon]

I still view them as the good guys. Sorry. Yes they did bad things, but the way the Iliad is written is so that you view them as the good guys in the war. It is just something that is always going to stick with me. I cannot view the Trojan's as good. They had a terrible royal family with the one exception of Hector. Although with the Trojan War both the Greeks and Trojans have good and bad people on their side. I would have to say that many of the leaders on both sides are the worst.

If I remember correctly Troy's symbol was a horse. That is another parallel between Helm's Deep/Rohan and Troy.