Turin=Achilles?

[Hakon]

The Romans were not exactly saints. I just always viewed the Greeks as good and the Trojans as evil. It was Paris that made me see them as evil and the Greeks as good.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And in a way Paris was between a rock, a rock, and a
hard place- what with the three vain goddesses starting
the whole thing. It is interesting that the theme of fated
destiny in the Trojan War (essentially effecting the actions of
both humans and gods) is only (I believe) directly used by
Tolkien with the Children of Hurin, which makes it somewhat
discordant to the general ethos of Middle-earth.

Elsewhere in the tales he seems, to me, to effectively
combine free will and Iluvatar seeing that his plan
for Middle-earth and its peoples, by allowing evil to have
the possibility to "win" for a time but eventually redress
a given situation (for example, Morgoth having a nice winning
streak in Beleriand). And I think somewhere Gandalf muses
that he will not have totally failed if anything fair lives in
Middle-earth (or something to that effect).

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Hakon

The Romans were not exactly saints. I just always viewed the Greeks as good and the Trojans as evil. It was Paris that made me see them as evil and the Greeks as good.

Rome was no more or less a villain than Athens, Sparta, Mycene, or Thebes.

Paris may have started the whole mess between the Greeks and Trojans, but if you read closely I think you'll actually find more admirable traits among the Trojans.

-Agamemnon was a thoroughly deplorable man, who killed his own daughter, Iphigenia, to appease the goddess, Artemis. You see, Artemis was angry about some slight and was preventing the Greeks from sailing from Aulis. Agamemnon just had to get this ball rolling and he wasn't going to let anything silly like his daughter's life get in the way of conquering Troy, by thunder. So, a quick knife to his daughter's chest, Artemis was satisfied, and the Greeks set sail.

-Achilles had a grand mal hissy fit over Agamemnon keeping the woman, Briseis, after Achilles had won her as a war prize. So, like any good commander with victory in mind, Achilles withdrew his men and sulked- for a year, if I remember correctly.

-I've already mentioned how victory over Hector wasn't enough for Achilles. When you kill the (ahem) "special friend" of an invulnerable, manic depressive Greek warrior, even if it's mistaken identity, you can apparently expect to have your corpse desecrated as further revenge.

-Odysseus was actually the one who defeated Troy, and he had to use skullduggery instead of good old-fashioned brawn and elan.

"Good guys"? I think not.

[Hakon]

I still view them as the good guys. Sorry. Yes they did bad things, but the way the Iliad is written is so that you view them as the good guys in the war. It is just something that is always going to stick with me. I cannot view the Trojan's as good. They had a terrible royal family with the one exception of Hector. Although with the Trojan War both the Greeks and Trojans have good and bad people on their side. I would have to say that many of the leaders on both sides are the worst.

If I remember correctly Troy's symbol was a horse. That is another parallel between Helm's Deep/Rohan and Troy.

[Pitchwife]

I don't see the Iliad as the story of a conflict between good and evil. Both sides are portrayed as human, with human virtues, flaws and shortcomings distributed more or less evenly.
And let's not forget that the conflict was ultimately caused and fed by the Gods, who participated in the war on both sides.

[Hakon]

That is true. It is just that as humans we tend to call one side good and one side evil no matter what.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I still view them as the good guys. Sorry. Yes they did bad things, but the way the Iliad is written is so that you view them as the good guys in the war. It is just something that is always going to stick with me. I cannot view the Trojan's as good. They had a terrible royal family with the one exception of Hector.

Priam was evil? Andromache? Cassandra? Polydorus? I don't know if we've read the same Iliad.

If I remember correctly Troy's symbol was a horse. That is another parallel between Helm's Deep/Rohan and Troy.

I'm not sure what that had to do with who was or wasn't on the side of evil in the Iliad, but that could well be entirely coincidental.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Priam was evil? Andromache? Cassandra? Polydorus? I don't know if we've read the same Iliad.

Actually, in the Medieval worldview, Hector was acclaimed one of the Nine Worthies -- one of three from Pagan lands (also Alexander and Julius Caesar) -- who were accounted as paragons of chivalry. In no sense were Trojans 'evil'; on the contrary, the Greek fleet was decimated after their horrible sack of Troy, and many heroes were drowned. Also, for their affronts against the gods, Odysseus was forced to wander 10 years before finally being allowed to return home, and Agamemmnon was murdered by his wife, Clytemnestra.

[Pitchwife]

By the way, have any of you read Kassandra by Christa Wolf (in case it's been translated into your respective languages)? She paints the Greeks as the bad guys in darkest colours - for example, she invariably refers to Achilles as 'Achilles the Beast'; one-sided, of course, but an interesting attempt to re-tell history/mythology from the perspective of the losers.

But all this is taking us miles away from Tolkien. Interestingly, the conflict between good and evil, which is so prominent in Tolkien's Legendarium, seems to be conspicuously absent in classical mythology - as it is in most of the mythological or heroic literature which inspired or may have inspired our Professor (Kalevala, Nibelungenlied/ Volsunga Saga, Icelandic Sagas in general, Mabinogion, Tain Bo Cuailnge, Fenian cycle, you name it). The only possible exceptions that come to my mind at the moment are Beowulf (which is the work of a Christian author) and the conflict between the Gods and Giants in the Norse Edda (which I tend to see as authentically pagan with a thin Christian veneer). But there's no figure of archetypal evil like Morgoth or Sauron anywhere in the old myths - except for ancient Jewish mythology (otherwise known as the Bible).
Possible conclusions from this observation:
1. The conflict between good and evil is a specifically Christian (or Judeo-Christian-Islamic) theme, which Homer and most of the other pagan authors didn't find interesting (though they cared about such issues as chaos and order - as in e.g. Zeus vs the Titans, but with no moral values attached);
2. The conflict between good and evil as the crucial point of the story may also be viewed as a specifically modern element which Tolkien introduced into mythological literature inspired by his experience of 20th century history.
Truth, as I see it, is a mixture of both.

[Hakon]

One of the main reasons that there is no real big war between good and evil in classical mythology is, it is humans mostly. There are gods but if you just focus on what the main race is, then you see why. There is no divine good race like the Elves of Middle Earth, or a race that is pure evil like the orcs.

To address the good and evil of the Iliad, I just view the Greeks as good. I always have. There are several reasons for that. One I lack morals, two I saw what the Greeks were doing as good, three I tend to view groups of people through specific people. I always viewed the Trojans through Paris and the Greeks through Achilles.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In some ways Hector is not unlike my favorite LOTR
character (Faramir) -and don't get me started on PJ's
TTT ) in that Hector would have preferred a
peaceful life but, as the crown prince of Troy felt it his
duty to engage in combat. Recall that he proposed,
and Achilles rejected, the proper Trojan War protocol
of returning the slain hero to the others family for proper
burial. And he had a rather immature brother (in Hector's
case a younger one) causing problems by emotional
impulses.

Hector does seem to be the most balanced, and likable,
character in the Iliad. In a way he's Homer's real hero.

[Pitchwife]

Hakon, most of the old epics tell the story from the perspective of one side and naturally make us sympathize with this side (e.g. Väinämöinen & co., not the people of Pohjola, in the Kalevala; the British, not the Irish, in the Second Branch of the Mabinogion, etc.). This is not to be confused with the issue of good and evil in a moral sense (as you realized).
I think the greatness of Homer lies in the fact that he tried to do justice to both sides (as did the author/s of the Tain, for example).
The Nibelungenlied/Volsunga Saga is interesting in that it does a turnabout in the middle: in the first half we're led to sympathize with Siegfried/Sigurd and Kriemhild/Gudrun and may tend to view Hagen/Högni as evil, but in the second half, when they're about to be butchered by the Huns, we (I, at least) sympathize with Hagen/Högni and Gunther/Gunnar and admire their bravery against huge odds.

There is no divine good race like the Elves of Middle Earth, or a race that is pure evil like the orcs.

Nice observation, but don't let davem see that! Point being: if you look at the Elves of the Silmarillion, they are, as far as moral ambiguity is concerned, much closer to the heroes of classical mythology than the Elves of LotR (Feanor, Celegorm, Curufin, Eol, Maeglin, Saeros - heck, even Thingol in his dealing with the Dwarves!). And as for the Orcs - but that is another thread altogether.

EDIT: x-ed with Tuor. Good point about Hector and Faramir, couldn't agree more!

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I just view the Greeks as good. I always have. There are several reasons for that. One I lack morals