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[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe Fatty needed a few to himself. Or, when the plan came together to leave on the ponies with Frodo, maybe the extra pony (which seems to oddly disappear) was to masquerade as Fatty, who was pretending to be Frodo.

Hmm, I would rather think that Merry went up to his father and said, "I'm helping Frodo move from Hobbiton to Crickhollow, and we need a bunch of ponies to move all the stuff Bilbo left behind." And his unsuspecting dad gave him the keys to the car... er, the stables.

And I have no doubt that other people in the Shire talked about it, but it probably wasn't more than just gossip-level stuff about those peculiar Brandybucks.

[skip spence]

I've been reading FotR again and was wondering: where did Merry (1) find six ponies for sale, (2) acquire the money for the purchase, (3) buy the six ponies without raising any suspicion and (4) find six ponies for sale in the first place?

I don't see why the purchase of a few ponies would be such a big deal in the Shire. I mean, the country was clearly a rich, well provided part of Middle Earth with a multitude of small businesses we can assume produced items such as umbrellas, bags, cracker- (and regular) paper , tea-pots, pipes, cutlery and even clocks, although I can see the latter being imported Dwarf-made stuff that only the very rich such as Bilbo could afford. I also think it's safe to assume that the Shire would have had a much larger population, and subsequently customer base than Bree.
With this in mind, I don't find unlikely that there would be one or several Pony-dealers in the country who'd have no problem filling an order of six animals, or that it would be remarkable if the Brandybucks or the Tooks made such as order.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

How about the Dwarves? A number of Hobbits had contact with them on a business basis, and they would likely have had animals of the right size for Hobbits. They weren't particularly talkative in public either...

[Rumil]

Hi all, just a quick one on pony numbers,

Merry indeed had six ponies stabled at Crickhollow, but the hobbits only took five with them into the Forest. The sixth was Fatty Bolger's mount, that carried him (presumably unhappily!) up to the High Hay to say farewell to Frodo et al on the morning of their departure. I think its safe to say that Fredregar would have preferred to ride back to Crickhollow than hike back.

Later of course he had to run for it when the Nazgul turned up, but had to go on foot, presumably to sneak out the back way. I guess he couldn't have risked getting to the stable, and anyway would be more conspicuous fleeing by pony than on foot, and couldn't hope to outrun the black steeds of the Nazgul.

So from the Old Forest to Bree there was a riding pony each for the four hobbits, and an additional pack pony, these were the ponies that Bombadil named Sharp-Ears, Wise-Nose, Swish-Tail, Bumpkin and White-Socks.

[Mithalwen]

I don't think there is really anything problematic about this - pony (and cart) and Shank's pony were the normal methods of Shire transport as they were in England in Tolkien's youth and a while longer (we just met up with a distant cousin and my Dad was reminiscing about going on her father's milkround in the thirties and that was with pony & trap). None of the hobbits say "oh but I can't ride..." ..even Sam.. he would have been used to the ponies used by his farming connections. We know that farmers such as Maggot have working ponies and I imagine that wealthy hobbits such as Merry and Pippin had riding ponies for fun especially if they lived in rural areas.

Brandy Hall had over a hundred residents at any given time I think. I should imagine that there were probably a fair number of ponies available anyway (rather like a modern car pool). I don't imagine anyone would have batted an eyelid if Mr Merry or Mr Pippin had bought a pony or two extra -anymore than we are suprised if the modern rich have more than one car.

The only reason there were problems getting ponies at Bree was because they had all been driven off. I don't think for a moment that there was a general shortage.

[Mnemosyne]

Supposing Buckland already has a great stock of ponies of its own? Of course, that begs the question of why these particular ponies didn't already have names, but it would make a lot of sense for such a wealthy and powerful family to be in the breeding business.

Under these circumstances it wouldn't be such a big deal for Merry to make off with them at the last minute, and considering he himself is already disappearing the fact that he was running off with ponies wouldn't cause so much talk.

Plus if Buckland is into breeding, that might explain some of the affinity Merry has for Rohan, and my fic-minded self has already suggested that as a result Buckland has the best ponies in the Shire 120 years down the road...



On a side note, go to Mordor you spammer.

[Mithalwen]

Do agree on that nice Merry-Rohan link, Mnemo but I don't think the names are particularyl significant. People often do change a horses name when they buy it - Sam names Bill for example. I thin we are more anthropomorphic these days - I read this week that there has been a change in the names people give dogs so that they are now mostly human names. They may have regarded naming horses as sentimental as naming a car (though most of my cars have had names). Only in Rohan where the horses were as loved practically as their children is the name more important seemingly.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Of course, that begs the question of why these particular ponies didn't already have names

If you are referring to the fact that Tom Bombadill called them "Sharp-Ears, Wise-Nose, Swish-Tail, Bumpkin and White-Socks" I believe that it's said that (paraphrasing) "after that they never replied to another name" which implies they HAD other names before

As to how Merry got the ponies, I think we also need to consider the duration of their "conspiracy". It wasn't an overnight deal, I have always been under the impression that it was over a year in the making. So if over time a wealthy young man takes an interest in ponies and buys a few more (I'd assume he owned at least a couple) it would not raise THAT many eyebrows

And of course, by the time they realized Merry had disappeared with five ponies and three friends there were greater things to worry about than why he got the ponies in the first place

[Morsul the Dark]

also he may have gotten some money from pippi weren't the tooks fairly wealthy

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

also he may have gotten some money from pippi weren't the tooks fairly wealthy

My understnding is that the Tooks were as close as monarchy that the Shire got, the Brandybucks were the same in Buckland.

As far as ponies go, Merry could have just taken some from his father. Or perhaps, Merry owned his own ponies. He's the heir to Buckland basically, so, he probably has at least one pony of his own. Perhaps he carried out the purchase (if he did, in fact, buy the ponies) in his own name. The population of the Shire and Buckland probably would not find it strange that Merry Brandybuck bought some live stock.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Farael

As to how Merry got the ponies, I think we also need to consider the duration of their "conspiracy". It wasn't an overnight deal, I have always been under the impression that it was over a year in the making. So if over time a wealthy young man takes an interest in ponies and buys a few more (I'd assume he owned at least a couple) it would not raise THAT many eyebrows

Nice points Farael, especially since it was no doubt widely known that Merry was arranging matters for Mr Baggins' well publicised relocation to Crickhollow. I think we can safely assume Merry would have had a pony or two at his disposal (he drove the cart and meets the walkers at the Ferry on horseback (of course that may have been the same pony but quite feasible that the son of the Master would have had a riding pony and a driving pony... ). But I am sure that noone would have batted an eyelid at him acquiring a few more for the use of Frodo and Pippin in the same way that someone moving out of town now may need to buy a car.

[Farael]

I was just reading a book I bought recently about the battle of Agincourt, and I found it rather remarkable that even the lesser nobility were "allowed" (read: paid for by the King) to take six horses each for the invasion, and often they took more on their own expense. Greater nobles took horses in their hundreds just for their own use. The members of their household took their allotted number of horses on top of that!

So, if both Merry and Pippin are sons of very influential nobility figures, it would only make sense that the Brandybucks and Tooks owned thousands of ponies among the head of the family and his principal relatives. All of a sudden, six ponies doesn't seem like that much, does it?

That is, assuming that medieval Europe (or at least England) was influential on how Tolkien imagined The Shire, which I believe is a safe bet.