Tol-in-Gaurhoth LXIX: Were-Librarians

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I can't believe that nobody has thrown in a bit of basic werewolf lore yet: If you have a hunch about the gifteds, unless you're evil yourself, for crying out loud - shut up! With very few exceptions, you're only helping the wolves!

Boro, did you just seriously ask Hakon to elaborate on why he thinks I'm the ranger?? Hakon might get a pass for that for being new, you know better.

Boro=evil.

I was in the middle of making a post that consisted of something like "Why would Boro want to further expose Mac as the ranger if he was a good guy?" Now, I'm not convinced Mac is the ranger - in fact, I have a feeling (much like Hakon's hunch) that he may not even be on the side of good in this game - but Boro's blatant fishing has me worried now. Evil? Maybe.

[Boromir88]

Boro, did you just seriously ask Hakon to elaborate on why he thinks I'm the ranger?? Hakon might get a pass for that for being new, you know better.

Boro=evil.~Mac

It's already been thrown out there and not be me, so stop making it look like this is some big secret we should shupt up about. I don't know why that makes me evil. And in this case the Ranger is much better protected because he/she can defend himself or anyone twice in a row...I figure the role is almost like the hunter where sometimes the hunter is more dangerous known than unknown.

This isn't the normal Ranger and I don't know why you jumped on me asking about Hakon's hunch. For all you know I could be the ranger and curious to Hakon's reasoning and trying to protect myself. (I'll say now before I get bombarded against by more people I'm not the Ranger...but whatever)

It's more evil that 2 people immediately jump out on me asking Hakon to explain himself.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's more evil that 2 people immediately jump out on me asking Hakon to explain himself.

I wasn't trying to tag team you about questioning Hakon; I even asked a question of him. There's no need to get defensive (unless it's a guilty conscience speaking); as it is, you explained why you wanted to know about Hakon's hunch and it can be left at that. For now.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

OMGUS much, Boro? (Wow, I used a Mafia term.)

Here and reading. Foremost in my mind today is Fea vs. Nerwen, and of the two I think Nerwen the more likely to be innocent... but this could just be the general innocent vs. innocent that seems to happen every game.

[Formendacil]

Well, said Form, I'm back...

Which is to say that I've read over the thread, with greater detail here, less detail there. Unfortunately, as usual, I'm not having wolves leap out of the shadows and declare themselves--which is a crying shame, since that means I can look forward to the tedious task of trying to sort things out the old-fashioned way.

On the very recent (relative to the rest of the day) note that Mac could be a Gifted/Wolf and Boro would be stupendously foolish to point out the former if that's the case... I haven't got any good reasons for thinking it at the moment, but as far as all that goes, my gut is on the side of Boromir and says that Mac could be a WW. The point was raised earlier that I might be a late-coming wolf voting Hakon in the hopes of saving Sally--I'm not, but I'm not so young at this as to think you'll take my word for it. The point has also already been made, I think, that Mac could have been doing the same thing with his Nienna vote. Oddly, perhaps, that line of reasoning doesn't especially bother me--if, indeed, it's true (as we cannot tell till the post-game) what Mac says about not knowing Nienna's Day 1 Death-Penchant. Perhaps this is just me and the skewed perspective of having visited said Downer.

However... even if Mac didn't seem guilty on the start-a-different-bandwaggon note, he does seem extra jumpy about Boro at the moment, and as I don't really know what to make of that, I'm inclined to ascribe it to Wolvery.

More anon...

[Nessa Telrunya]

Well, I fear being the first to vote, but RL restricts me from posting right up to the 1am deadline in my timezone. Now, going off of earlier musings of my own rather than the frenzied topics of Fea and Nienna is how I'm going to vote.

++Brinn


Now, before anyone demands the 'why', you can find my reasons already stated in post #119

[Shastanis Althreduin]

- Based on the Wilwa kill, I think Fea is innocent. The Fea I know wouldn't hide behind a no-trace kill (at least, I don't think she would.)

- Based on Mac's #106 - specifically this:

I do have to say that, reading Sally's later posts, I would probably have retracted to her. She criticised votes against her instead of suspicion against her and the way she tried to encourage people to vote Nienna doesn't look good either. Needless to say, this implies that Nienna is very probably innocent.

I think Mac could be guilty. Something about this strikes me as trying to share in the credit for the lynch of a librarian, and his vote for Nienna, while not the most suspicious thing about him, combines oddly with what he said about Sally encouraging people to vote for Nienna.

- Since I now begin to think badly of Mac, this post of Fea's catches my attention:

Mac is someone who I was worried about, but upon closer inspection, I think it was just me assuming that he might hypothetically be possibly someone to worry about, in theory. After I took a closer look at his posts, I do definitely think I was reading too much into them.

If Mac is in fact a wolf, I think this could be... something that I don't have the words for. It just looks odd, okay? Jeez.

- I agree with Nerwen's #109 (partially because she echoes my now-top-two suspects). I have to ask, though, why all this heaping suspicion on Nerwen?

- Fea mentions Nerwen again in #110, but Mac thinks her innocent in #111. I'm not sure which looks worse here, but I'm thing Mac for his 180.

- Boro's #113, especially this:

I had it narrowed down to a few, and was trying to think of some sort of good seerish hints to drop. So decided to use Princess Bride quotes. So, I picked sally as the fake dream, because of our history in the lover role, and I knew she'd get any PB reference.

This makes me feel pretty good about Boro, especially the hint thing. Just bad luck he picked on an actual baddie to hint to (and I feel stupid for not seeing the Princess Bride references myself; but then again, all the games with Phantom I've played and I haven't seen even one of his "hints" either.... guess I'm just bad at picking up hints. )

- Regarding Fea:

I daresay if I'm a were-librarian, the seer will already have dreamed of me and the village is well shot of me as soon as xe comes forth with the declaration, "Mon Dieu! Fea is, yet again, a wolf! We must kill her now!"

This quote seems Phantomish and I don't like it, especially since Fea was barely around Day 1.

- Nessa's #119 about Brinn seems well-thought-out, but I do have to wonder how much of Brinn's post was IC. Her reason for voting Nienna does seem weird, though; it might as well have been random, so why not just say that it was?

- This quote by Alonariel strikes me as odd:

How was the bandwaggon for Sally weak? She was practically on the hunt for Boro throughout the first half of Day 1, and then always reacting to the votes against her, rather than try and allay the suspicion that fueled those votes in the first place, as Mac said.

The first half of Day 1 was banter-only, really, by the command of the mods, so using that as a reason for voting seems strange. And then jumping on something that Mac has already said...Hmm.

- Mac again, #125:

Now slowly everybody: I was thinking aloud and ended up with it. I'm far away from saying that's how things are.

Except that you already said that! I don't like that you're trying to take back what you've said, Mac.

- Hakon's #129, about how we can rule out Alona, is wrong (as people have said, I think?) Newbieism doesn't preclude one from being a wolf.

Edit: X'ed with Formendacil.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

- This quote by Alonariel strikes me as odd:

The first half of Day 1 was banter-only, really, by the command of the mods, so using that as a reason for voting seems strange. And then jumping on something that Mac has already said...Hmm.

I do seem to be agreeing with Mac a lot, don't I? Whether it was done intentionally or by coincidence, I find it amusing either way.

And although the moddesses stated that there were no hints in their narration, they didn't say that players couldn't hide hints in their own narrations: so why isn't what Sally said IC fair game for deciding whether or not to vote for her? It was her attitude IC and her subsequent defense against the votes for her that created suspicion, in my view.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by alonariel

I do seem to be agreeing with Mac a lot, don't I? Whether it was done intentionally or by coincidence, I find it amusing either way.

And although the moddesses stated that there were no hints in their narration, they didn't say that players couldn't hide hints in their own narrations: so why isn't what Sally said IC fair game for deciding whether or not to vote for her? It was her attitude IC and her subsequent defense against the votes for her that created suspicion, in my view.

Yes, and then you voted him.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

This quote seems Phantomish and I don't like it, especially since Fea was barely around Day 1.

This relates to the fact that the last two games or three games I played in, I was a wolf that was dreamed of on the first (or close to it) Night.

I mean... It's not arrogance so much as dead on truth: I get dreamed of.

Sidenote: It's really hard to play this game with Lari and Mira talking behind you. [/sidenote]

Okay, so now that I've finally caught up... I have very little to say except that Hakon is making n00b errors about telling who he suspects is a gifted, Boro is remaining reasonable...

Actually, that's about all I retained.

I think I'm supposed to be dying a friend's hair...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

This relates to the fact that the last two games or three games I played in, I was a wolf that was dreamed of on the first (or close to it) Night.

I mean... It's not arrogance so much as dead on truth: I get dreamed of.

Sidenote: It's really hard to play this game with Lari and Mira talking behind you. [/sidenote]

Okay, so now that I've finally caught up... I have very little to say except that Hakon is making n00b errors about telling who he suspects is a gifted, Boro is remaining reasonable...

Actually, that's about all I retained.

I think I'm supposed to be dying a friend's hair...

I know, but it's still Phantomish and thus annoying. I don't think it says that you're a wolf, I just think it's... annoying.

[Boromir88]

OMGUS much, Boro? (Wow, I used a Mafia term.)~Shasta

Yes, but mostly in times of frustration when I'm not thinking clearly.

It's been thrown out as a hunch without anything to back it. Unlikely the librarians would seriously consider it as it stood.~Mac

That's unlikely, as soon as it's thrown out there, hunch or not, it's more likely the wolves would pay attention.

You should also consider it's an attempt by me to catch wolves in it's track...whether it's Hakon or another trying to turn the conversation. This is part that frustrates me the most, instead of waiting to see what happens, or try and figure out what someone is up to, anything that seems tricky or secretive is taken as a sign of evil. News flash, this is not always the case, innocents can use their own secrets to try and catch wolves, but when you immediately jump after someone and make them explain themselves, it makes the whole thing moot.

I would have thought I proved trustworthy enough after I came clean about my failed intentions with sally, yesterday and my blatant indication that I still had a few tricks up my sleeve.

You also should not downplay wolves missing kills, failed kills give us more days. For what it's worth I was purposefully trying to get people's reactions to Hakon and see if that would reveal anything, or if anyone was trying to steer conversation. As it is now, however and my intention is spilled, well I'm willing to let the matter lie where it is. If you desire to continue to pursue about the Ranger go ahead.

Form, I'm jumpy about Boro because he did something an innocent Boro would not have done. Would a wolf-Boro do it? Not sure, maybe not, because it would be too risky. Would a cobbler-Boro do it? Yes. (Note that I said Boro=evil, not Boro=wolf.)

This isn't meant to sound bitter, I'm just going to say it...don't presume you know what I would do as a wolf or as an innocent. Some may have a grasp on what I would do, but I remember not too long ago you were saying I was completely wrong about 'wasting' a lynch on a player who would wind up lynched anyway. Of course you were a wolf then, and maybe you were just lying, but you seemed pretty adamant that we wasted a lynch chance, when arguably we didn't.

I'm not infallible, I'm capable of mistakes and blunders and flubs like anyone else, but if I have my own rationale for doing what I do, hopefully that's enough to get trust.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Nessa's vote for Brinn.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm not infallible, I'm capable of mistakes and blunders and flubs like anyone else, but if I have my own rationale for doing what I do, hopefully that's enough to get trust.

Blatantly asking us to trust you when you of all people know that no one is worthy of trust in a WW game? Hmm...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Blatantly asking us to trust you when you of all people know that no one is worthy of trust in a WW game? Hmm...

My trust in Lommy's innocence in Brinn's game was a big help, when you have nothing else that's what it takes working together and trust. I'm not talking about willy-nilly just whoever you want to trust, it takes gut feeling and of course proof that you can, which is what I am trying to display in my honest responses. No one will take me at my word for it, but I'm being straight with everyone about what I'm doing. Take it or leave it.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

This isn't meant to sound bitter, I'm just going to say it...don't presume you know what I would do as a wolf or as an innocent. Some may have a grasp on what I would do, but I remember not too long ago you were saying I was completely wrong about 'wasting' a lynch on a player who would wind up lynched anyway. Of course you were a wolf then, and maybe you were just lying, but you seemed pretty adamant that we wasted a lynch chance, when arguably we didn't.

If I may play conciliator, Mac need not have meant "what Boro himself would do as a Cobbler" so much as "what a cobbler, who might be Boro might do as a Cobbler"--which is quite another thing entirely. Of course, especially as I'm reading this into the single quote snippet in Boro's last post, if, in fact, Mac is imputing that he can delve into Boro's very psyche and retrieve the secrets of his probable actions--then, by all means, continue to pursue this course of argument. If nothing else, the defences Boro mounts and the attacks Mac offers should afford the rest of us the chance to pick out more of a vibe on both you.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's already been thrown out there and not be me, so stop making it look like this is some big secret we should shupt up about.

It's been thrown out as a hunch without anything to back it. Unlikely the librarians would seriously consider it as it stood. You were asking him to solidify it and, which would also cause the village to discuss gifteds instead of librarians.

Originally Posted by Boro

I don't know why that makes me evil.

See above.

Originally Posted by Boro

And in this case the Ranger is much better protected because he/she can defend himself or anyone twice in a row...I figure the role is almost like the hunter where sometimes the hunter is more dangerous known than unknown.

*takes a deep breath*

That is utter nonsense. Yes, the ranger is better protected and is able to take two night kills away from the librarians if revealed. But if he has to protect himself he cannot protect the seer twice and thus give us two additional dreams out of a revealed seer. Two dreams at the end of the game can be deciding! You know that well. Almost like the hunter? What threat is attacking the ranger to the librarians? None, except for losing kills.

Originally Posted by Boro

This isn't the normal Ranger and I don't know why you jumped on me asking about Hakon's hunch.

See above.

Originally Posted by Boro

For all you know I could be the ranger and curious to Hakon's reasoning and trying to protect myself. (I'll say now before I get bombarded against by more people I'm not the Ranger...but whatever)

No. If that was the case you would be gathering questionable information at the cost of risking the life of someone you do not know is not gifted.

Originally Posted by Boro

It's more evil that 2 people immediately jump out on me asking Hakon to explain himself.

True. It should have been more.


Alonariel - you voted for me yesterday without reason and you still think I'm suspicious... mind to share why?


Form, I'm jumpy about Boro because he did something an innocent Boro would not have done. Would a wolf-Boro do it? Not sure, maybe not, because it would be too risky. Would a cobbler-Boro do it? Yes. (Note that I said Boro=evil, not Boro=wolf.)
Anyway, with the Snitch's power the way it is, I would not consider lynching him a waste in the least.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Form, I'm jumpy about Boro because he did something an innocent Boro would not have done. Would a wolf-Boro do it? Not sure, maybe not, because it would be too risky. Would a cobbler-Boro do it? Yes. (Note that I said Boro=evil, not Boro=wolf.)
Anyway, with the Snitch's power the way it is, I would not consider lynching him a waste in the least.

Although my gut's still on Boro's side here, you do bring up an interesting point--I'd completely forgotten about the Cobbler. That would, certainly, put a whole different dimension on yesterday's events. The thought occurred to me, reading over yesterday's posts, that the whole Boro and Sally smooch-fest might have been one or the other's attempt to play at the Lovers--I did not think it likely that both would have done that, but in the same way a genuine Boro-Innocent would impersonate a seer to protect the seer, I could see a Boro-Cobbler impersonating a Lover to confuse the seer--and I could see Sally having played along with with it either way.

But I'm still not sold on it. Boromir's reasoning makes sense to me, and, anyway, I'm not sure why he would have picked Sally. If, as a Cobbler, he thought her innocent, then he's giving shelter to an Innocent--which makes no sense. If he thought her a wolf, it certainly would certainly give her protection, if the seer bought it--but would the seer buy it? And what reason would Boro-Cobbler have for thinking Sally a wolf at that stage in the game?

Yeah... not sold on it...

And Brinn has earned a vote. That's... actually not a bad case, prima facie, but I don't know if I like it yet. Nessa seems to be one of those players that stays comfortably below the surface--or, in other words, I can't read her.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Alonariel - you voted for me yesterday without reason and you still think I'm suspicious... mind to share why?

I'm sad to say at this point it's still just a hunch. I know it may be very newbie-ish of me to expose that hunch because, if I'm wrong, it gives my future speculations very little weight and, if I'm right, I could be killed in the night. Though one situation is preferable above the other, I'm not truly fond of either.

I was originally going to vote for Sally, but thought that she was playing the part of a wolf far too obvious to actually be a wolf. As it was, I was wrong. I had had you in the back of my mind throughout Day 1 mostly because of your suspicion of Nienna when I felt there was no basis for it. Whether that was wrong or not as well...we'll soon find out, I suspect.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Well, the usual Day 1 conditions held, and I went for someone who wasn't objectively all that suspicious, but had just touched my instincts the wrong way, so felt more appropriate than a jump-on bandwaggon vote.

^ My feelings stated in a much clearer way, thank you Form.

I hope this explains some of my vote, even if it may be a little muddled. My voting for Day 1 had come after a very long day working with children, whose funny way of viewing the world does not always leave me with a very clear head afterwards.