What was Frodo's temptation

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I just wanted to say here how much I am admiring Tolkien's craft in all this. The mere fact that we not only can but are having this debate is I think the point. Tolkien did not give us a hero with an easily understood and simple motivation...either for good or for his eventual 'evil' (e.g. his 'failure'). I'm really quite at a loss to think of any hero in heroic literature who is so very opaque on this score. You always know what they are 'about' and what their motivations are. Heroes are simple.

And I admit that I have in the past been rather too simple minded in my approach to Frodo. I figured he was simple too: Ring must be destroyed, so I will destroy it, Ring too strong, but it still gets destroyed by Frodo's goodness. The goodness has never been questionable or dubious to me. Not even mysterious. But now it is.

Nerwen put it best: "But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?" That's what we're working through here...a set of differing interpretations of the book. No big deal in normal circumstances, but what we're differing on, what is mysterious, remains:

a) what was Frodo's motivation for destroying the Ring?

b) what was it in Frodo that made him vulnerable to the Ring and how is that connected to point a)?

c) why is it that his corruption/seduction by the Ring (and is it seduction or corruption--very different things) is so very different in nature from what happens to others?

I still think that it's too simple to brush aside the observation that Frodo was tempted in a way qualitatively (and disturbingly) different from the others. They all wanted to destroy Mordor with their own vision of the world (with them at the helm of course), while Frodo seemed to want simply to take over Mordor. He doesn't wish to mimic the Dark Lord and his works but to usurp him. Chilling stuff if you think of it. To paraphrase Aragorn in Moria, this hobbit is indeed made of sterner stuff than I'd imagined.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

a) what was Frodo's motivation for destroying the Ring?

Duty ... a desire to do "the right thing" no matter how hopeless the cause.

b) what was it in Frodo that made him vulnerable to the Ring and how is that connected to point a)?

Formendacil just mentioned Bilbo and the things that Bilbo and Frodo have in common. The qualities that Bilbo has that makes the difference are pity and mercy. He spares Gollum when he could killed him. So does Frodo. Of course, it is Frodo's act of mercy that means that Gollum can reappear at the climactic moment to enact the providential snatching of the Ring that ensures its destruction.

But ... is this connected with Frodo's desire to claim the Ring? Could it be that at that moment in the Sammath Naur the Ring appealed to Frodo's sense of pity and mercy towards ... Sauron?

Could the Ring have deceived Frodo into thinking that instead of destroying the Ring, and therefore Sauron, he should instead take the Ring for himself and therefore spare Sauron? So at that moment (of madness) it might have seemed to Frodo that becoming the new Dark Lord was the merciful thing to do.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

"the right thing"

Define, please.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Define, please.

To do his duty by seeing his task through to the bitter end. His task, of course, is to destroy the Ring and thereby rid the world of a great evil. There is no hope of reward for Frodo in this ... the likelihood is that he (and Sam) will die even if they are successful.

Nonetheless he undertakes this task, not because there is much chance of success but because it is the only hope the enemies of Sauron have. Therefore it is the right thing to do. It is the duty of all right-thinking people to oppose the encroaching threat of Sauron with whatever means possible. Frodo is the only possible person who can take the Ring to Mordor, consequently doing so is "the right thing" in the sense that it is morally superior to any other option.

Also, in order to keep going on the quest, Frodo has to maintain hope in the face of hopelessness. It is this hope, this faith in the rightness of his quest, that is all he really has to sustain him (other than the support of Sam).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Nonetheless he undertakes this task, not because there is much chance of success but because it is the only hope the enemies of Sauron have. Therefore it is the right thing to do. It is the duty of all right-thinking people to oppose the encroaching threat of Sauron with whatever means possible. Frodo is the only possible person who can take the Ring to Mordor, consequently doing so is "the right thing" in the sense that it is morally superior to any other option.

Interesting. So in your interpretation of the tale, Frodo's motive for destroying the Ring is explicitly NOT to save the Shire...that is just an ancillary effect, or secondary condition to the real moral obligation he feels to oppose Sauron. Your further point that his duty includes a sense of his uniqueness for this mission (Frodo's belief that he is "the only possible person") perhaps points to an understanding of why he fell to the Ring's power...of the Ring's 'in' with Frodo...

He set out on the quest holding the morally right but rather grandiose belief: "I am the only person who can save Middle-Earth from Sauron." I would think that there's ample material there for the Ring to work on, given that this belief (which is, as you say and I agree, morally right and quite a sound interpretation) verges on a particular kind of pride. I'm not saying that Frodo is naturally prideful or that he begins in that way, but from this perspective it would look as though he's leaving himself open to a temptation from the Ring based on pride: "Yes," it whispers, "You are the only one who can stop Sauron: only you, and you alone. You are very important. Perhaps the most important person in the world. You are the most important person in the world..." and so forth.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

But ... is this connected with Frodo's desire to claim the Ring? Could it be that at that moment in the Sammath Naur the Ring appealed to Frodo's sense of pity and mercy towards ... Sauron?

I must beg to differ here. While you do bring up a very interesting idea, I think that any self-proclaimed Ring Lord knew that before his dominion was complete he would've had to challenge and defeat Sauron. Furthermore, anyone who knew a bit of Sauron's history (like Frodo did) would've recognized that there was simply no way that Sauron would give up his claim to the ring while he had any hope to regain it left.

I am with Boromir88 on this one. I the thought that Frodo was completely and utterly defeated and in a way overthrown mentally and physically appeals to me in ways that no other "excuse" for his behaviour might. He was the "perfect" Ring Bearer and yet even he couldn't make it in the end. The corruption the Ring had on Frodo was that of wakening him to the point where he could no longer oppose the Ring's will. In the end, up until Gollum bit his finger off, Frodo was a slave to the ring. Certainly not a slave to Sauron directly, but a slave to Sauron's will by proxy.

[Keyan]

Good debate here.

What I have always thought is that Frodo is the most uncorruptable person in Middle Earth. Even after possessing the ring for quite some time, he STILL offers it freely to Galadriel. I would think if he had any even remote desire to be the lord of the ring he would never have done this.

I feel that if the ring is in the possession of someone who does not desire power, it acts in a more subtle and sinister way. It becomes precious to the owner. As Isuldur says "Though I bear it with a great pain, I will risk no harm to the ring, it is precious to me" (paraphrased from memory). It begins to take over the bearer's mind by twisting that person's love and loyalty to be directed towards the ring. It begins to make them obsess about it, until finally they can risk no harm to it. It's a survival mechanism. In the hands of someone with ambition to rule, it's path to corruption is simple and swift, in the hands of someone with no such desires, it has to work more slowly. It preserves their life so it has more time to corrupt them, or else it would risk having to start over again on a new bearer. I think Bilbo's obsession with it, even after managing to give it away, shows just how compelling this indoctrination can be.

I think, that in the end, the ring simply had more willpower. It made Frodo go mad when he was presented with the choice to harm the ring, or to do the only other option - take it for his own. He simply could not fight the desire to protect it from all harm.

The huge irony, and one I think is often overlooked, is that the Ring's own survival mechanism led to its own destruction. So completely had it controlled Gollum that he would suffer no other to have his precious. In his mindless glee of having the ring finally back in his possession, he did the one thing that no bearer had ever been able to do when the choice was presented consciously - he destroyed it.