What was Frodo's temptation

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Something made Frodo snap at the very end, and as he had never been a person who desired power over others, he either succumbed to the insanity of believing he could be that kind of person, or to the insanity of thinking that only with the Ring could the Shire be saved. Possibly a combination of both. Tolkien always did say that Frodo failed the quest (even though he achieved a kind of moral victory by giving all he had to give in attempting to fulfill it). Succumbing to despair in such a way would, I think, be a significant failure.

Aye, and there's the rub. Your take on this is a good one, but one founded only (and necessarily) on supposition and (educated/reasonable) guesswork. It fascinates me that Tolkien left this matter so open and 'undecided'. Even the statement of Frodo's "failure" which you cite is taken from the Letters...nowhere in the book does anyone seem to think of Frodo as failing (even Frodo himself seems to feel that he succeeded...at least he never says, "Oops, I blew it. Put on the Ring. My bad").

So while we can (and have) come up with a number of good theories as to what was going on, that is all they will ever be. It seems to me an important aspect of the book that one of the most central moments (if not THE central moment), when Frodo finally succumbs (as distinct from failure) to the Ring and puts it on. Why does he do this? What is he thinking? We aren't told.

And to address Inziladun's point about Sam's selflessness, I think that while sure he took the Ring for the sake of the quest, when it tried to fool him it did so by playing to his selfish desire to be The Greatest Gardener in Middle Earth (a rival to Galadriel even?). So it's not that Sam is selfish, only that the Ring was playing to that within him which is selfish...which in this case was not stronger than the selfless...

Which brings me back to Frodo...who seemed so entirely selfless throughout that even the Ring couldn't find anything to 'use' against him(?) Making him the only TRULY selfless person in the tale??

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I think Ibrin may have a good point with the aspect of despair. Despair is one of the great sins in Middle-earth, and hope one of the great virtues. We know that Sauron worked on Denethor by leading him to despair, since he apparently could not corrupt him to join him (which would make Denethor more virtuous than Saruman, who was corrupted to join!). This despair was his great failure. To carry on as if one had hope in a hopeless situation is what Gandalf did - was it him or Aragorn who said that they would then carry on without hope?

Giving up before the end (for not even the wise can see all ends) is one of the greatest mistakes that characters make in Tolkien's works. Was the claiming of the Ring giving up/giving in for Frodo?

Very interesting topic, Fordim, and great to have you active again!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Which brings me back to Frodo...who seemed so entirely selfless throughout that even the Ring couldn't find anything to 'use' against him(?) Making him the only TRULY selfless person in the tale??

Frodo was indeed a good hobbit and a selfless person by nature. At the beginning I have no doubt that saving the Shire (and the rest of ME) was his greatest desire. But during the long journey the Ring and Sauron's superior will in it were rubbing on him, slowly poisoning is mind, making him forget the Shire and his priorities:

No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark. Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.

By the end of the Quest Frodo becomes quite un-hobbity in mind, sort of wannabe Dark Lord-ish. We have glimpses of the process. Look how Frodo intimidated Gollum:

For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. [...]
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
‘Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.’

No really, is it a hobbit speaking?

Look also what happened in the Morgul Vale:

He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king – not yet.

Intresting this "not yet". I take it he was diluding himself with the idea to claim the Ring in order to be able to face off the Nazgul... The idea was already there and it would only grow.

And finally in the Cracks of Doom

Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use, and it rose above the throb and turmoil of Mount Doom, ringing in the roof and walls.
‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight.

I don't think Frodo was thinking of saving the Shire at the moment. Not anymore. In his deluded mind, poisoned by the Ring, he contemplated becoming the Ringlord, ruling ME, ordering about the nazgul. He was not Frodo anymore, he was a strange mixture of Frodo and Sauron from the Ring, with the latter clearly prevailing. The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him. That's why he felt so empty and broken with the Ring destroyed and could never enjoy the Shire again.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him.

If that was the case, why would Gollum, who bore the Ring much longer than Frodo and was more enamoured of evil from the start, not have been similarly affected while he possessed it?

(The Ring) could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again.

FOTR The Shadow of the Past

Originally Posted by Gordis

That's why he felt so empty and broken with the Ring destroyed and could never enjoy the Shire again.

I don't think that was the primary reason the Shire was no longer what it had been to him.

Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?

ROTK Homeward Bound

I had always considered that statement to Gandalf, coupled with Frodo's guilt about his ultimate failure in not casting away the Ring of his own accord, to be the explanantion of his inability to enjoy the Shire afterward. Certainly the loss of the Ring left a lasting impression upon him, but it is only on the anniversary of its destruction that we see him openly mourning it.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If that was the case, why would Gollum, who bore the Ring much longer than Frodo and was more enamoured of evil from the start, not have been similarly affected while he possessed it?

A few reasons:
1.Gollum while sitting in his cave had no idea what Ring he had and what Powers it contained. Once he knew, he did get the ideas of Lord Gollum ruler of all.
2. The ring was still almost "dormant", much less powerful than in Mordor with Sauron in full power

And indeed you must be right, Inziladun, the smallness, meanness of Gollum's mind had to be a factor. It seems the ring couldn't simply implant Sauron's ideas/personality in any mind, it had to have something to work on, some response. Gollum was content with his cave, his fish and his Precious. Maybe, unlike Gollum, Frodo had a broad outlook on things, cared about the World, not only about himself. Sauron also "cared" about ME, in his own twisted way. Note how the ring couldn't affect Tom, who cared only about his little land and was not interested in the rest. He didn't wish to better Middle Earth, while Frodo and Sauron did.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I had always considered that statement to Gandalf, coupled with Frodo's guilt about his ultimate failure in not casting away the Ring of his own accord, to be the explanation of his inability to enjoy the Shire afterward. Certainly the loss of the Ring left a lasting impression upon him, but it is only on the anniversary of its destruction that we see him openly mourning it.

Frodo gives the reason himself and you have cited it: "Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same" He has drastically changed himself, that's why. He is not at all the same hobbit who left the Shire a year ago, not even close. And I think the loss of the Ring is his biggest pain throughout, though he tries not to speak of it. It is like a part of his soul is ripped out.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Oh wow, this has all given me a completely new and entirely mind-altering view of Frodo.

Gordis, you wrote:

I don't think Frodo was thinking of saving the Shire at the moment. Not anymore. In his deluded mind, poisoned by the Ring, he contemplated becoming the Ringlord, ruling ME, ordering about the nazgul. He was not Frodo anymore, he was a strange mixture of Frodo and Sauron from the Ring, with the latter clearly prevailing. The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him. That's why he felt so empty and broken with the Ring destroyed and could never enjoy the Shire again.

Thanks so much for bringing me to this point, for I agree now with almost all that you write...except for one thing: "The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him." From everything we see of the Ring, it just doesn't work like that. Yes, it is motivated by the same selfishness and desire for mastery that motivates Sauron, but it always and only works on or with the material of the person being corrupted...using their own desire for good and perverting it (Gandalf's desire to protect, Galadriel's to preserve, Isildur's for glory, Boromir's for conquest, Sam's for Gardens, Bilbo's for long life, Gollum's for fish). But as Gordis has argued, and I now agree, Frodo succumbs to the desire to be the Dark Lord...which means that at some level this has always been his desire.

See what I mean by mind-altering? Frodo as actually wanting on some level to be the Dark Lord of Mordor??? But really, is there any other option here, given how the Ring works and given the absence of any other explicit kind of temptation. The visions that people have motivated by the Ring are clear indications of how they imagine themselves with it on their finger: Galadriel as a queen, Sam as a Gardener, Gollum as The Gollum, Boromir leading the West to victory. But, again as Gordis points out, Frodo sees himself as the Dark Lord…which means that this vision is coming from somewhere inside.

Again: wow!

So now I’m realising I’m going to have to rethink the entire tale in terms of finding if or where Frodo reveals this desire. I don’t think I could or would ever condemn him for it…not having been a Ringbearer myself and all…but I mean, come on, Frodo! Visions of glory or wealth, the idea of protecting and saving the Shire, these I could understand, but the promise of sitting on the Dark Throne itself and waging war against the Free West…that’s what the Ring finds in you????????????????

[Take that you silly people who want to see Frodo as a Christ-figure!]

[Bêthberry]

Gordis's point is very interesting and so are his quotations. I shall mull these over in another perusal of the book.

What it might mean is that hidden within us all, the best as well as the worst, is a naked and lustful desire for power, control, personal authority and that even in a person such as Frodo, broken by the physical hardships of the journey and the deprivation of light, joy and living being, he succumbs to that basic kernel of flawed Middle earth. You have to wonder what aspects of human nature Tolkien saw in the Somme.

Yet Frodo brought the Ring to the point where conditions would allow its destruction. Those conditions are not predicated upon any man's ability but upon a eucatastrophe.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

But as Gordis has argued, and I now agree, Frodo succumbs to the desire to be the Dark Lord...which means that at some level this has always been his desire.

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

I can't really see that Frodo, or any Hobbit (including Gollum) had, or ever had, a desire to dominate and order the lives of others. Wasn't Hobbit humility, coupled with mercy, what allowed Bilbo to keep the Ring for so long without being completely overcome by it, and what gave Frodo the mental fortitude to get the Ring all the way to Mt. Doom?

[Mnemosyne]

I'm honestly not even sure if I want to know. I love the things that Tolkien left silent (especially about Frodo) for what they are.

Personally, I think that whatever the Ring had tried in the past Frodo was able to beat down sufficiently that eventually it became a simple war of attrition. Frodo doesn't forget the Shire because he doesn't want it preserved as his mental refuge (he says WAY back in Shadow of the Past that even knowing the Shire exists will comfort him); he forgets it because that's one of his lifelines and the Ring is cutting all of them down.

And this would be the point to bring up that famous "I do not choose" line, and the brief scene where Frodo asks Sam to take his hands so he can't take the Ring. That doesn't sound like temptation to me, at least not in its classic sense.

I've seen lots of various answers to this in (where else?) fan fic but they're all based on the fanauthors' interpretations of Frodo and not on canon.

The only canon-based theory that comes to mind right now is the idea of personal recognition: Frodo despairs at Minas Morgul because he's been too late and everyone is going to be killed before he has a chance to do anything. How he masters himself is by then reminding himself that he has to do it anyway, even if no one will know. Similarly (from the same time that he talks about the Shire being a spiritual comfort) he mentions about how dull everyone there is, which when coupled with the note in Letters about how there was still probably after all this time some part of him that wanted to be recognized back home for his deeds (Frodo seems to be pretty uncomfortable with praise abroad) I think that this could have been one flaw for the Ring to exploit (if indeed we are going with that theory about the Ring's nature).

Finally, this is not a false dilemma. He could have been going through anything and more. But whatever it was that finally cracked Frodo, it must have been a pretty small temptation in its natural state if he resisted it this long.

Apologies for the rambles, but if anyone does want to get to the bottom of this (and I for one think that the "Dark Lord" interpretation, while dramatic, is too simple) I think we need to redefine some of the assumptions that go into the question.

[Gordis]

Fodrim, thanks - I am glad you liked my ideas.

But I never said that Frodo had the hidden desire to become the Dark Lord from the very start. Actually I agree with Nerwen.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

Frodo had the desire to better the world, he cared for it as most good people do and more than that he was willing to act upon it. -
And it was this very desire that the Ring managed to twist and amplify. It would have done the same with Gandalf or Galadriel far easier, because they were not so humble. In Frodo the Ring had to overcome his hobbit humbleness, persuade him that he was the very person destined to become the Overlord. I don't think we was willing to become an EVIL overlord, even at Mt.Doom, but he saw himself as the Ringlord all the same.

In the letter 246 Tolkien describes what would have happened if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from Frodo and the Nazgul had time to arrive to Mount Doom:

I think [the Nazgul] would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this.

Note Frodo's attitude: he was ready to listen to the Nazgul, to survey his new Kingdom, he was already enmeshed in Napoleonic plans...
Not a thought spared for the Shire, or for the West, or for his friends...

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Frodo succumbs to the desire to be the Dark Lord...which means that at some level this has always been his desire.

Interesting thought. What makes Frodo different from everyone else who is tempted by the Ring? Everyone else thinks of what they could do with the Ring - but Frodo's mission is to destroy the Ring ... not to use it. By destroying the Ring Frodo will defeat the Dark Lord.

In other words, Frodo's job is to defeat the Dark Lord. He doesn't have any other desires to rule or order the world that the Ring can work on.

Now ... as Frodo approaches the Sammath Naur the influence of the Ring grows to the point of being unbearable. He no longer has any actual memory of the real world. Finally he reaches the place where he can destroy the Ring, but this is also where its influence is impossible to resist. His willpower has got him this far because his mission is to destroy the Ring (and therefore the Dark Lord) - so what else has the Ring got to work with at this moment but to appeal to Frodo - "don't destroy me, claim me and you can destroy the Dark Lord with my help".

Perhaps Frodo has never consciously thought of being the Dark Lord, but he knows very well that it is his task to destroy the Dark Lord by destroying the Ring. The responsibility weighs very heavily upon him.

One thing that Frodo does desire is wisdom and knowledge ... he is the most learned of all the Hobbits in the Shire. At that final moment of the Doom I imagine the Ring appealing to his intellect ... surely he must have some vanity, no matter how pure his intentions. In a roundabout I think I might be saying something similar to what Gordis said two posts earlier!

Great idea for a thread ... kudos to the original poster, Fordim Hedgethistle!