Saruman's death

[Pitchwife]

Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari:

Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?.

I think the reason the Istari 'wore' physical bodies was so they would be able to actually experience life in Middle-earth from the true perspective of the Children that abode there. Presumably that would give them greater insight on the manner of which to approach the fight against Sauron. That fact alone wouldn't affect their life potential as angelic spirits, though. Gandalf and Saruman experienced only physical 'deaths'; Gandalf's spirit being allowed to return to complete his task, and Saruman's ultimately rejected. The quote you provided from UT about Saruman is significant, and that does support the idea that he was effectively banished from ME. I wouldn't think his sins grave enough to warrant sending him to the Void, though. Sauron himself could have gotten a second chance after the fall of Morgoth, if he'd really wanted one.
Sauron's loss of body at the hands of the Last Alliance (and after the Ring was destroyed) was due to a sudden loss of power, quite different from the Istari who 'died'.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

The Valar themselves were only 'managers', so to speak. Though the idea to send the Istari and physically embody them had been theirs, it was apparently beyond their authority to approve, needing the 'Head' to do so. If the initial idea had to be given the go-ahead by Eru, I would think any changes to the plan would have to be approved by him as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari:

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

Ha, well done indeed with the research on the last quote. I guess that changes the matters a lot. In any case, my former speculation was indeed just a speculation, or a theory. The thing with Istari bodies is probably a more complicated one. I agree with Inziladun about the need of approval from Eru, since the Valar needed his approval for the Istari project (or at least "perhaps", as it is said in one of the drafts), that's the basis for all the thoughts of Gandalf's return being approved by Eru himself and not just by Valar. Okay, so the question would be: what would happen to a perfectly faithful and hard-labouring Gandalf who would happen to die along the way, if there was no intervention from Eru? I believe the gaze of Saruman's spirit into the West is the answer: it really does not seem that a dead Wizard would expect to go beyond the Circles of the World (but perhaps he just was not prepared for the alternative?), but that even a formless Maia, however diminished in power in Middle-Earth, would be once again accepted back in Valinor. Also, think of one more thing. The destruction of a Wizard's physical body does not put him into the same basket with Men, in the sense that they would go to where the Men do. This has several reasons. Firstly, Death for Men is a gift from Eru, and it would seem to me against all logic to actually give the Wizards a gift intended for totally different type of creatures and reserved for them alone. And secondly, whoever said that an incarnate Wizard would be any closer to Men than to Elves. The Wizards' forms were those of the Children of Ilúvatar, and that is, both Men and Elves. The fact that they had beards is merely a cosmetic thing (not to speak of that Círdan had a beard as well), and let us not forget that Men themselves considered the Wizards being Elvish (although for various reasons based on rather simple and surface perceptions). It is indeed told that they were walking among both Men and Elves who perceived them as ones "of them". In any case, in the matters of death the Maiar were still far closer to Elves than to Men (heading to the West, Mandos, etc., basically inside Arda, not somewhere out of it, like Men did), and it would be really really strange to have such a big change in the paradigm of the world by the Istari's incarnation. The Istari were still mere messengers, not really a big deal in the large scale, whereas the matter of Death of Men seems from all that is said in the books as one of the last things that could ever be tampered with (we had Beren, Lúthien and a few others whose fate was actually changed in some way).

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

Well, acccording to the UT he also desecrated/destroyed Isildur's reamains, I dont know how bad an act that is reckoned in ME, but it proably doesnt count well for one.

In a slight side note if the fea of good wizards who are slain return to Valinor, does that mean the the fea of the Blue Wizards are also over there (assuming of course that they are actually dead) once again serving Yavanna in her court? Makes you wonder who met Gandalf and co when the boat finally landed in the West.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

In a slight side note if the fea of good wizards who are slain return to Valinor, does that mean the the fea of the Blue Wizards are also over there (assuming of course that they are actually dead) once again serving Yavanna in her court? Makes you wonder who met Gandalf and co when the boat finally landed in the West.

That all is a question and it depends also on what actually happened to the Blue Ones - though if Tolkien's fears became true and they failed as well, I figure they'd be locked up in Mandos or something. Though for some reason, I believe they still were somewhere out there in M-E when the Third Age has ended.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That all is a question and it depends also on what actually happened to the Blue Ones - though if Tolkien's fears became true and they failed as well, I figure they'd be locked up in Mandos or something. Though for some reason, I believe they still were somewhere out there in M-E when the Third Age has ended.

I can understand them being kept, or waiting in, the Halls of Mandos, but why on Middle Earth would he lock them up? Being slain is hardly a punishable offence. Icidentally if Tolkien's fears were correct, it would also be a major strike against Saruman, since Tolkein's thoughts seem to imply that if The Blue are dead it was at Saruman's hands, which would add killing fellow wizards to his rap sheet. Oh and I realize I mad one addional mistake if their fea had returned to Valinor they would have been serving Orome, not Yavanna (I got their summoner and Radagast's confused) But I also like imagining that they were still around somewhere maybe in the far south of Far Harad (far enough to actually be beyond Saurons control) or way up North among the Lossoth or both (hey with two of them there no guarantee they stayed together)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

Floating atop the great waves of Belegaer, going from West Shore to East Shore... Should keep him pretty busy.

Re the Blue Wizards: When Saruman travelled with them to the East, I don't think he had evil intentions yet. It's much later that he became corrupted (I am hazy on this part of history. If I'm wrong, please correct me.). I highly doubt that he killed them.

Welcome to the Downs, Azrakhor Akallabeth! Where does it say that Curunir=Saruman made a Ring of Power? I don't recall reading any of this. Gandalf mentions a ring, but not one of power:

He [Saruman] wore a ring on his finger. ~FOTR The Council of Elrond

I always assumed that it was a symbol of authority, but didn't posses any "real power".

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Floating atop the great waves of Belegaer, going from West Shore to East Shore... Should keep him pretty busy.

Re the Blue Wizards: When Saruman travelled with them to the East, I don't think he had evil intentions yet. It's much later that he became corrupted (I am hazy on this part of history. If I'm wrong, please correct me.). I highly doubt that he killed them.

Welcome to the Downs, Azrakhor Akallabeth! Where does it say that Curunir=Saruman made a Ring of Power? I don't recall reading any of this. Gandalf mentions a ring, but not one of power:



I always assumed that it was a symbol of authority, but didn't posses any "real power".

Now I suppose I'll have to look it up. I'll get back with that. I remember it distinctly because I recall musing about what level of power and ability he achieved with his own trinket. And thank you, Galadriel55!

[Bauglir]

Saruman wearing a ring has always been an interesting one I think. After all, Gandalf mentions on numerous occasions that Saruman did many things in mockery and imitation of Sauron, and it is also implied that he was a great study of ring lore and all-devices-Sauron. Could it be possible that Saruman attempted a few proto-types of his own?

On the original topic of Saruman and Sauron's demise, it seems pretty similar. I've always thought of Saruman as simply wandering Middle-earth afterwards in reflection, but this thread may convince me to change my mind yet!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bauglir

I've always thought of Saruman as simply wandering Middle-earth afterwards in reflection, but this thread may convince me to change my mind yet!

Ditto! And welcome to the Downs!

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

In regards to Curinir's ring, the only indisputable reference is made by his own mouth, and that it was seen upon his hand...

Gandalf says later in the chapter:
"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger."

Saruman says later in the chapter:
"For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

My assumption that it is at least an "attempt" at a Ring of Power comes from his very own nature. And while it is largely circumstantial, it can reasonably predict a likely course that he took...

1. He was a Maia of Aule, that troublesome Vala whose own aggressive thirst for Lore Knowledge led him to create the Dwarves-

Just like Gorthaur in the beginning, Curunir was a Maia of great power and knowledge from the people of Aule, and was almost certainly privvy in Valinor to the knowledge of the Noldor, such as it was in it's infancy. So he had, at least, some background in great Lorecraft, and almost undoubtedly watched the work of Feanor with great interest. Their collective weakness against the lure of great artifacts of power and the will to create them no doubt sprang from this allegience which was crafted through a kinship of spirit.

2. He searched out the crafts and secrets of the enemy in order to, at first, defeat him-

He was found to have possessed some of the great artifacts of Isildur's day when Orthanc was later thrown open. He undoubtedly knew the Ring was lost by Isildur in the Anduin. And in his pursuits over thousands of years, almost certainly rifled through the ruins of Barad-Dur, delved deeply into the knowledge of the Elves of Eregion, such as had been saved, on the pretext (honestly at first) of discovering a way to undo the ring or its maker.

His search into the Arts of the enemy are supposed to be the thing which, at the very least, sparked his desire to imitate some of those methods for his high purpose as leader of the White Council.

3. He was a Maia, in human form-

The greatness of his noble spirit was ensnared by the weakness of his mortal form, a constant danger to such beings. His true innate power, while limited by the Valar in this quest in order to spare themselves the problem of sending out another potential Dark Lord, was most certainly as great as any High Elven Lord.

And it was Elven Lords, most specifically Celebrimbor of Hollin, who created the greatest of the Elven Rings. But in the very least case he was surely a match in his limited capacity, even for Elrond or Glorfindel, who recognized the Wizards as Maiar spirits and constantly revered and deferred to them.


So while it is unlikely that he got himself enough information to forge a competitor to the One Ring, and more unlikely because he was unable to draw on his full power as had Gorthaur, he could certainly have forged a series of lesser rings, or even a Ring of Power on par with the Three Elven rings whose maker was a mere elf. It's purpose then would be to help him, first of all, find the One. Second, to rule his hoardes, and third to enhance his own limited strength to these ends.

It can be seen by the Dwarves whose own magic was small, or non-existent that certain materials had magical properties in and of themselves, and didn't require a great magic user to forge an Artifact of Power. So even in the enhancing of his own power, Curunir had available a host of useful information. But his ultimate goal was to supplant Gorthaur, now Sauron, and take his place. So the only thing stopping him from pouring his innate power and essence into a ring attempt would only be the lack of information on how to do so.

Therefore I find it reasonable to conceive of the idea that he probably got 'somewhere' in his effort, and based on the thread subject, likely spent himself to the verge of nothingness, rather than his fate being some judgement of Eru or the Valar, because in the Silmarillion, even Gorthaur the Cruel got the chance to repent and go back to Valinor to the ghastly and terrible sentence of "Community Service" like Melkor had at first. And Curunir of Valinor, while fallen and most certainly guilty of many crimes, still hadn't commited the kind of acts from which Gorthaur was given the opportunity to repent.

All things being even, it's hard to argue that the Valar would suddenly become more harsh with Curunir than they had ever been with Gorthaur, or even Melkor, whose crimes against Middle-Earth were abhorrent and horrible in the extreme. No, I believe Curunir of Valinor, or Saruman the Wise, got his fate by doing the dangerous self-jeopardizing things which Sauron did, and in the same way reaped the same result. And even if at first the Valar were innocent and ignorant of the ways of evil, and therefore a bit more hopeful of their repentance, and an argument made for their becoming justly less tolerant of evil, it's still very difficult to discover on all of his doings where Curunir warranted a random dissipation of his essence. Rather, he would have been taken to Mandos to serve a sentence that lasted until the last battle, at most, and neither did the Valar have the authority, even if they had the power, to dissipate a fellow Ainu in judgement of anything.

The way that his shadow looked Westward for pardon may have been a plea to the Valar to assist him or entreat Eru to assist him against this fate of endless nothingness, and sought for a restoration to his original Maia status.

Of course, this is only pure speculation on my part.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Now, we see from Sauron's appearance among the Elves of Eregion as Annatar, that he came as a "Teacher" and a "Lord of Gifts" supplying secret knowledge by which the Elves were able to combine their own lore and create the Great Rings. Therefore it is an easy jump to assume that Curunir, being also from Aule's people, already had a great store of "once secret" knowledge of his own... enough to at least begin the trials of ring making. His only missing element should have been the discoveries of Celebrimbor and the Smith's of Hollin.

While much had perished in the Wars of the RIng, not all had been lost, as the point continues to prove itself. My own belief is that he attained enough knowledge from secret scrolls and the minds of the Elven ring-wearers to make a serious attempt at a Ring of Power. Because, like Sauron, the greater part of the knowledge to do this seems likely to have already been his.