Saruman's death

[Findegil]

The paralle to Saurons final deembodyment is stricing, but I think it is missleading.

The fea of Sauron we see grasping for the western parts of Middle-Earth, while Saruman is praying to the outermost west (Valinor), I would say.

The death of Gandalf at Celebdil is a better parallel. After his return Gandalf confirmes, that he was outside space and time. This can in the context of Middle-Earth only mean that he was with Eru. Thus his death was very similar to the death of mortal men, which is fitting since we are told that the Istari came to Middel-Earth in the form of mortal men.

If that is true for Gandalf, I don't see why it should be otherwise for Saruman. The difference is probably that Saruman was very reluctant and tried to aviod this fate by a prayer to Manwe to let him return to Valinor, while Gandalf seemed to except it.

By the way: Sauron was not pushed outside the world into the void. He was reduced to a spirt unable to effect the physical world but oblidge to stay in Eä until the end. There were only 6 cases in which Ainur were premitted to leave Eä before it final end and in all 6 cases Eru himself was involved: Morgoth after the defeat at the end of the First Age and the Istari.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The fea of Sauron we see grasping for the western parts of Middle-Earth, while Saruman is praying to the outermost west (Valinor), I would say.

The similarity I see is that both were given a judgement, it seems, by someone, in the form of the wind that takes them.

Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out toward them a vast threatening hand......a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

ROTK The Field of Cormallen

For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

ROTK The Scouring of the Shire

Originally Posted by Findegil

By the way: Sauron was not pushed outside the world into the void. He was reduced to a spirt unable to effect the physical world but oblidge to stay in Eä until the end. There were only 6 cases in which Ainur were premitted to leave Eä before it final end and in all 6 cases Eru himself was involved: Morgoth after the defeat at the end of the First Age and the Istari.

I thought of that point about Sauron remaining in ME indefinitley as well. I do recall a quote that would lead one to believe he eventually went to the Void, however.

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was [that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron....in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

Silm Valaquenta

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

With what has been already said, I would consider the last remark Inziladun made for Sauron's fate as significant, however it's likely "metaphorical" here, Sauron would not have, I think, gone into the Void immediately after his final demise. I believe he remained around, but in such a poor state that it was even weaker than before when he lost his body after the Last Alliance, and now he definitely lost any chance of ever regaining his power, with the Ring being lost.

As for Saruman though, this always made me wonder too. In some ways, I like Findegil's interpretation. However, it still remains a question. The only thing we know for certain is that Saruman was rejected by the Valar - for either good or bad, that is, he would not return there among the Maiar in Valinor, but not even would he face a judgement from the Valar there (like Morgoth did). "In good and bad he belonged to Middle-Earth" now? Being rejected from the West, even from being judged in front of the Valar, is of course a judgement itself - and a pretty considerate one. The wind which dissolved his spirit made it clear. "Silence means judgement," as one Rabbinic saying goes, and I believe this would be exactly the case.

What exactly I have in mind: I think the Valar just decided not to do anything when Saruman's physical body was destroyed. What does it mean? Let us imagine the process of sending the Istari as some kind of a "contract". Basically, it was a job, so we can imagine it like a job contract. The Valar say: "You are going to Middle-Earth, for that, you will have physical bodies which can be harmed etc., and once you are done with your tasks, you can return here and you'll be again transformed into your immortal existence." That's all right, but of course accidents could happen, in such a case, I believe - and as we saw with Gandalf, in a way - the spirits of dead Istari would return to Valinor and would be given back their previous form of existence - only they would not be able to accomplish their task anymore. With Gandalf, he gained a special permission, when such a thing happened, the Valar's superior himself allowed him to go back with a new body. With Saruman, I believe the case was just different, where Valar actually denied to dead Saruman even to return back to Valinor - they cancelled their part of the contract. Even though the "contract" would have originally made it possible for the Istari to die during their stay in M-E, but they would be then still received back, in Saruman's case, not even this was made possible.

What lead me to think like this is the fact that Saruman's spirit was at first looking expectantly to the West - I don't know how it seems to you, but to me this looks like a kind of turn of events, because this would be probably for the first time in many years when Saruman had ever looked into the West (with the intention to expect some help from there). But: "We cancel our contract, we don't know you anymore", that was basically the meaning of the wind from the West, if it were set into words (and one could well imagine that Valar could support this decision by saying also "...because you obviously canceled the contract from your part already some time ago.")

And so, Saruman basically died like any other creature bound to Middle-Earth, with the single difference that now his spirit did not have a home to go to. Elves go to Mandos, Men go beyond the circles of the world, but Saruman - like Sauron - was rejected his home, the place where his spirit should belong to after his death, and now he was, indeed, I believe doomed to remain in Middle-Earth as a formless and powerless spirit. And in fact, to react to first post of Inziladun's, I believe his case actually was the same as Sauron's, only for different reasons. One was bound to M-E because of the Ring, and it was destroyed; the other was bound to M-E by physical body of a man-wizard, as a part of a contract, but he was rejected the possibility to return to his spiritual existence in Valinor, and so again, when the body was destroyed, nothing remained except for a formless and totally powerless spirit.

So they both were sentenced to roam the Middle-Earth in the long ages... and perhaps still wait for their final judgement. I think this could have given them both a long time to think, and it would be interesting to speculate if their ways would differ in any way here - for I believe it was said that Sauron would join Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath, whereas we probably don't know anything about Saruman, unless I am mistaken? - Anyway, they would probably both expect the final judgement yet to come, though I wonder if in the end this bodiless stay in Middle-Earth wouldn't be considered as a sufficient "purgatory" - and probably only after that, we shall see (cf. the Dagor Dagorath question above).

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...So they both were sentenced to roam the Middle-Earth in the long ages...

This pretty much sums up how I have always interpreted the fate of both Saruman and Sauron. I have also assumed that neither would be able to affect their environment in anyway but I wonder if it would be possible for them to inhabit another body or dominate other spirits such as the nazgul, wights or houseless elves. I also wonder what would happen if they ever ran into one another.

Yes, I have too much time on my hands at the moment.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

This pretty much sums up how I have always interpreted the fate of both Saruman and Sauron. I have also assumed that neither would be able to affect their environment in anyway but I wonder if it would be possible for them to inhabit another body or dominate other spirits such as the nazgul, wights or houseless elves. I also wonder what would happen if they ever ran into one another.

Yes, I have too much time on my hands at the moment.

It's probably a matter of personal belief, but I actually believe (from what's been said in the books and also what I "feel right") that indeed as you say in the beginning, that they would not be able to affect their environment in any way at all. I think they could be "visible" to some over-sensitive people, let's say, if somebody was constantly troubled by nightmares, he could from time to time catch a glimpse of "real" Sauron who managed to get stuck around his house for some longer time, but that's about it. I don't believe that they would be capable even of any form of possession. Somebody could see a weak "echo" of them in their dreams or something, if they tried really hard to catch his attention and if the person was sensitive enough, but still it would be just weak and shaded pale vision, nothing more. Something like the way Legolas perceived the Dead Men of Dunharrow, "weak and fragile", merely "shadows of Men", with the difference that Saruman and Sauron would be even far less than the Dead Men of Dunharrow ever were. Wisp and smoke, nothing more.

And as for what would have happened if they ran into one another, I guess Saruman at least would not have any wish for that encounter, in the "best" case, they could "gnaw each other with words", but I believe neither would be able to do anything to the other anyway (they are really just wisp and smoke), and anyway I doubt either would relish in such an encounter, for fear of being mocked by the other now in their utterly powerless state, and the same thing would probably happen if they encountered a lost fea of a dead Elf or something. I think seeing a totally powerless Dark Lord would be quite satisfactory for his former victims. I immediately thought of the words chanted by the dead in Isaiah 14: "...Underworld is moved to meet thee at thy coming: it stirred up the dead for thee... All they shall speak and say unto thee: Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like us? ...And they shall look upon thee and wonder: Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms...?"

[Inziladun]

I'd agree that Sauron and Saruman would likely have no power any longer to affect the physical world, though I do like Legate's idea of a select few 'sensitives' being able to see them from time to time.
If they happened to encounter one another in spirit form, I wonder how they would converse, with no physical bodies. Some sort of thought transference? Even if they had originally possessed that power as Maia, it doesn't seem they would still have had it in their lowly state.

[Pitchwife]

Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari:

Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Findegil

After his return Gandalf confirmes, that he was outside space and time. This can in the context of Middle-Earth only mean that he was with Eru.

What he actually says is

Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

The wording is somewhat ambiguous - out of thought and time could (I'm not saying does) mean something as simple as being unconscious and unaware of time passing, and roads that I will not tell could also refer to the West - he wouldn't say explicitly he'd been with the Valar as that would reveal his Maiarin nature.
Nevertheless, your argument that, being incarnated in a mortal body, he died and went to Eru like a mortal is convincing for me, and the Prof himself confirms it in Letter 156:

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed[...] He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up the plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.

No need to assume Saruman's death was different, although Authority's verdict on him certainly was.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The similarity I see is that both were given a judgement, it seems, by someone, in the form of the wind that takes them.

I think the wind obviously points to Manwe. If we accept that Saruman died a mortal's death, Manwe probably didn't pass judgement on Saruman himself, but we could say he refused Saruman's appeal and referred him to Eru's Supreme Court.

(x-ed with Legate, who makes some valid points which I still have to digest.)