Gandalf's First Sacrifice

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Why so complicated? Eru would have used the Eagles to save Gandalf, that's his intervention.

Actually, I tend to think the eagles were divine intervention, sent by Manwe if not by Eru, since eagles are Manwe's favorites, and Gandalf/Olorin was of Manwe's people. I rather think there would have been some kind of intervention, regardless, as I don't believe Gandalf was meant to die at that juncture. Something would have happened to prevent it. I was merely speculating upon the "what if he DID jump?" line of thought.

[Lalwendë]

Only Eru knows what will unfold through time, the Valar do not, so they couldn't 'know' what lay in store for Gandalf and how important he would prove to be. They could have particular care for him and wish to intervene and save him, that's the extent of it. Eru, however, could intervene and warn them to be prepared to save Gandalf, being omnipotent.

My own take though is that the Valar and Eagles were simply watching over the band of travellers and ready to come in with their deus ex machina

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Actually, I tend to think the eagles were divine intervention, sent by Manwe if not by Eru, since eagles are Manwe's favorites, and Gandalf/Olorin was of Manwe's people. I rather think there would have been some kind of intervention, regardless, as I don't Gandalf was meant to die at that juncture. Something would have happened to prevent it. I was merely speculating upon the "what if he DID jump?" line of thought.

Yes, I agree. But it's just this "why to make it complicated when it can be easy". If Eru is omniscient, then the Eagles just would have come in time, whatever would have happened. But I know what you mean.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, I agree. But it's just this "why to make it complicated when it can be easy". If Eru is omniscient, then the Eagles just would have come in time, whatever would have happened. But I know what you mean.

Isn't that actually a bad thing? If this deus ex machina can suddenly drop on from a height and save our Hero whenever he's in a sticky situation, then doesn't that ruin the story? Not only does he not have to find the cunning way out of adversity but he can also do pretty much anything with no worries about getting harmed.

A device like that can put a Hero into some morally thorny situations too. If it so happens that whenever you're in danger someone/thing saves you, then questions start being asked about whether you should do more to help others. This was a point addressed in the recent series of Torchwood where Captain Jack, who cannot be killed, is seen not to be wholly moral as he does not fear putting others in mortal peril.

I prefer to think that the Valar intervened to help out 'one of their own' without any intervention from Eru and without any knowledge of Gandalf's future importance as it throws the rest of the story into moral jeopardy as Gandalf gets into many situations where he gets others into danger or could help more - if this deus ex machina to save him really exists.

As a 'one time only service' it works - Gandalf being sent back by Eru after being killed by the Balrog must be that one time. And after all, it's not the only time Eagles have come to help him.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As a 'one time only service' it works - Gandalf being sent back by Eru after being killed by the Balrog must be that one time. And after all, it's not the only time Eagles have come to help him.

I am not sure what was your point, or how it was related to what I was talking about, but with this, I am saying - or was saying - that actually, if the Balrog incident was one time, as you say, then the Five Firtrees Incident was the other time, too (or vice versa, chronologically). Simply put, given what's been said in the very beginning few posts of this thread (especially Form's), this led me to realisation that actually the Five Firtrees Incident, when evaluated from looking back, very likely was as much of an important case as the Balrog one. (In case that we are not taking the other possible way of understanding it, as offered above by others, i.e. that it was just Bilbo's writing exaggeration and the situation actually wasn't as bad as it seemed.)

What lead me to this is:
1) Gandalf is about to die
2) Eagles appear at the right time in the right place
3) We have kind of outlined what would have happened if Gandalf died by then, he was NEEDED yet back then, it was certainly not the time for him to die yet. Whatever said about other occassions, but this time it just couldn't be allowed to happen.
4) Eagles are the device of the Powers, as we know.

Ergo, a scholar evaluating the set of events from some centuries away point of view would probably note and put into the Red Book of the Fourth Age: okay, it is clear that there was the divine intervention there. "Something else at work", perhaps, as Gandalf would say.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not sure what was your point, or how it was related to what I was talking about, but with this, I am saying - or was saying - that actually, if the Balrog incident was one time, as you say, then the Five Firtrees Incident was the other time, too (or vice versa, chronologically). Simply put, given what's been said in the very beginning few posts of this thread (especially Form's), this led me to realisation that actually the Five Firtrees Incident, when evaluated from looking back, very likely was as much of an important case as the Balrog one. (In case that we are not taking the other possible way of understanding it, as offered above by others, i.e. that it was just Bilbo's writing exaggeration and the situation actually wasn't as bad as it seemed.)

What lead me to this is:
1) Gandalf is about to die
2) Eagles appear at the right time in the right place
3) We have kind of outlined what would have happened if Gandalf died by then, he was NEEDED yet back then, it was certainly not the time for him to die yet. Whatever said about other occassions, but this time it just couldn't be allowed to happen.
4) Eagles are the device of the Powers, as we know.

Ergo, a scholar evaluating the set of events from some centuries away point of view would probably note and put into the Red Book of the Fourth Age: okay, it is clear that there was the divine intervention there. "Something else at work", perhaps, as Gandalf would say.

"Something else at work" yes, but not of the same calibre as Gandalf's return after the fall in Moria. More akin to his rescue from Isengard.

These are simple rescues, what happened in Moria was his physical being was destroyed and he was allowed to return and complete his work in Middle-earth, it's a much bigger deal.

I wouldn't rule out the Valar being involved in Gandalf's airborne rescues, but it's not something Eru needs to be concerned with. Nor something he would need to take a hand in, given that he takes very little hand in the affairs of Arda anyway and it's something his 'captains' can deal with, as t'were

If indeed Eru is there to put a hand in whenever Gandalf is in a fix, no matter if it's something a Valar or anyone else can help him with, then this puts Gandalf in a very difficult position. He effectively becomes this figure who can't be defeated at all, and as such there are dozens of situations where you could argue he ought to have done more, given that he had this amazing get-out clause.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

"Something else at work" yes, but not of the same calibre as Gandalf's return after the fall in Moria. More akin to his rescue from Isengard.

These are simple rescues, what happened in Moria was his physical being was destroyed and he was allowed to return and complete his work in Middle-earth, it's a much bigger deal.

I wouldn't rule out the Valar being involved in Gandalf's airborne rescues, but it's not something Eru needs to be concerned with. Nor something he would need to take a hand in, given that he takes very little hand in the affairs of Arda anyway and it's something his 'captains' can deal with, as t'were

Ah yea, true - Valar would be enough for me, why not. Even though, you have to bear in mind, of course this was different from Moria. Because in Moria, he actually DID die. So that's the difference. Which makes me think... hmm, really, that makes me indeed think that in this case, it would have been "only" Valar interfering. As in RL, the "true" miracles are far more subtle and hard-to-catch things, not that self-evident.

If indeed Eru is there to put a hand in whenever Gandalf is in a fix, no matter if it's something a Valar or anyone else can help him with, then this puts Gandalf in a very difficult position. He effectively becomes this figure who can't be defeated at all, and as such there are dozens of situations where you could argue he ought to have done more, given that he had this amazing get-out clause.

Well obviously that is not what I meant. Again, look at Moria. But my point was, that if Gandalf at that point for some reason was to survive, he did. Such thing can be always evaluated only from the look backwards, never forwards or in speculation. (Like what I said before, the Eagles just did arrive on time.)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I wouldn't rule out the Valar being involved in Gandalf's airborne rescues, but it's not something Eru needs to be concerned with. Nor something he would need to take a hand in, given that he takes very little hand in the affairs of Arda anyway and it's something his 'captains' can deal with, as t'were

Nice points here. I just thought I'd put in that if the eagles were a 'tool' used by anyone, whether the Valar or Eru, they apparently were unaware of it. The only reason they seem to have been there to rescue Thorin and Co. was that they had heard the baying of the wolves and seen the light from the goblins' fires, and went to have a closer look. There's no indication they had any idea Gandalf was there until they actually picked him up.