Gandalf's First Sacrifice

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

His death now, just as the Ring is coming out of hiding, would be bad, and I could see that Eru would not want Gandalf taken out of the picture just yet. However, I think that if Eru were to take a hand in this (presuming Gandalf did hurl himself down from that tree), it would be to make sure he did NOT die. Landing on a group of suddenly conveniently placed goblins or wolves could be enough to do the trick.

Why so complicated? Eru would have used the Eagles to save Gandalf, that's his intervention. So in fact one cannot pass this "what would Eru do if the Eagles didn't turn up in time", as that's what he actually did, I would say. I think we are actually facing something here, Form is right and it never occured to me before:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Of course, with a bent for Divine Providence in my system, I'm willing to say that Eru acted through the Eagles--or perhaps, more convolutedly, since Eru is undoubtedly intelligent enough for convolutions--Eru acted through the Valar acting through the Eagles, who happen to show up just in time. Knowing what is to come, this strikes me as having the same sort of divine serendipity to it as Bilbo finding the Ring--Gandalf was meant to fall saving Frodo from the Balrog, returning just in time to fight Saruman and Sauron at the only moments when an unveiled Istar would have been "permitted."

Of course Eru would intervene. He intervenes here, I am sure. Form says it pretty well! What are the Eagles? Aren't they the device that comes up only in really important parts of the story? Are they not appearing only a few times of world-shaking importance - and one might as well ask, why the heck are they appearing now? We just gave ourselves the answer: to save Gandalf! To put it in a bit silly phrased words, "this was not the day for him to die yet".

Though otherwise, of course, the speculations here are quite nice. One more thing I would point out to them, though - let us not forget what was the situation back then. Dol Guldur. Why did Gandalf leave the Company at Mirkwood? To go to the White Council's meeting, to support the attack on Sauron, and then to go to Dol Guldur and drive Sauron away. That was an important blow, and only then Gandalf returned to Erebor to the Battle of the Five Armies. So if you are making assumptions "what would have happened, if Gandalf died on the tree", don't forget that that would mean no Gandalf coming to the White Council. And who knows? Saruman was intending to get rid of Sauron back then already, as he crossed his plans, but would he not back away if there was not Gandalf present? And would the others dare to do it without Gandalf, too? Wouldn't it be too much of a shift in powers? Sauron would have the Wilderness in his hands, especially if the Battle of the Five Armies was lost too. Not sure how well his relations with the Easterling tribes were back then, and how exactly the situation was favourable for him back then (like, if the political situation in the East at that time would allow him to summon the Easterlings to his cause fast and strike to the West. If yes, then good riddance, Middle-Earth). By the way, thank goodness that Smaug would have been probably killed nevertheless! (Quite an important factor, if you recall what Gandalf said in UT about the fact that if Sauron and the Dragon joined forces, it would mean total disaster.) I think there would be at least some hope, but the political balance in M-E would be shifted in such a disasterous way that the West would face serious problems by then. Sauron would not have had built up his armies in Mordor yet, but he would have had far better starting position, having an unharmed base of operation in Mirkwood and open route through the Wilderness (no Kingdom of Dale to worry about), he could easily retake Angmar soon. Bilbo could retreat to the Shire by then, but he could not get far, the Shadow would lie as far as the Misty Mountains and possibly it will even start creeping into Rhudaur. Rivendell may as well have been surrounded, like in old times. And we cannot say for sure about Saruman, as he would be afraid, so afraid that Sauron will now get the Ring - as he will still presume that it's somewhere in the Gladden Fields - and who knows what he would do.