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Old 09-27-2009, 06:56 PM   #1
Tuor in Gondolin
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Well, hey. After saving herself for 2,000+ years for
the right guy can you blame her?

Go Cougars!
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:10 AM   #2
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It also seems to me that, with some notable exceptions, the mental maturity and wisdom of Elves doesn't continue to grow greater and greater with their many years. Some act just as "baseborn" as any Man even when they have thousands of years behind them. As many humans reach a certain point in life and then just stop there in terms of their maturity -- how many of us know people who are still mentally stuck in high school or college, or even elementary school? -- so do some Elves. The ones who go around talking freely about their own greater wisdom and knowledge to "lesser" races are probably about as emotionally mature as a teenager of that so-called lesser race. Arwen may have had the opportunity to see and do and learn more than Aragorn because she had more years behind her, but did she avail herself of it to any great extent? Galadriel went out into the world, sought out new experiences, learned many things, made the most of the opportunities her naturally long life could present, but did Arwen? If she did, I don't recall Tolkien ever mentioning it.

And I think one must also consider that Aragorn spent many of his formative years living in the same house and environment that had been Arwen's in her childhood. That probably made a difference as well.

Arwen the cougar, though. What a thought.
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:15 AM   #3
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It also seems to me that, with some notable exceptions, the mental maturity and wisdom of Elves doesn't continue to grow greater and greater with their many years. Some act just as "baseborn" as any Man even when they have thousands of years behind them. As many humans reach a certain point in life and then just stop there in terms of their maturity -- how many of us know people who are still mentally stuck in high school or college, or even elementary school? -- so do some Elves. The ones who go around talking freely about their own greater wisdom and knowledge to "lesser" races are probably about as emotionally mature as a teenager of that so-called lesser race.
That's a good point. Think of Saeros of Doriath with his contempt of Túrin. Or, for that matter, the great Elwë Singollo himself, who demonstrated the belief that other races were beneath him when dealing with Beren and the Dwarves of Nogrod.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:57 PM   #4
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It'd be a mistake to assume that all Elves are 'wise' just because of their long lives, you must assume they are individuals as much as anyone else is, and there would be bound to be some who were foolish or who wasted all that time given to them, and others who simply did not have the temperament to stop and think and to use any acquired wisdom before acting.

It could be of course that by nature Elves did not have the same impetus that Men might have to acquire knowledge and experience. Assuming you would have long years ahead of you, you may not have the same urge to fill that time with experience as a mortal might. I always think a lot of Elves must have been vulnerable to living lives of stagnation.

And to back that up, those who we meet in Tolkien's work who do seem to have a wealth of wisdom also seem to be those who were most 'active' and who mixed with others more - Galadriel and Elrond are great examples of Elves who displayed immense wisdom and who were also not 'static' in any sense.

So looked at in that light, Aragorn may have seemed an incredibly exciting and fascinating figure to Arwen.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:42 PM   #5
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It could be of course that by nature Elves did not have the same impetus that Men might have to acquire knowledge and experience. Assuming you would have long years ahead of you, you may not have the same urge to fill that time with experience as a mortal might. I always think a lot of Elves must have been vulnerable to living lives of stagnation.
There is really something to be said to this. If you want to follow the texts that suggest that Elves are automatically "written" into the Music, but Men are free to pursue their own destiny (but it'll still work out to Eru's will, because Eru's Eru, doncha know), that would suggest that Elves had a more passive relationship with the world around them. Whereas we all know from our own mortal experience that humankind has this innate drive to make some sort of impact on the world around us--which means more opportunities for new experiences and a different, "mortal" kind of wisdom. The very fact that we are not "bound" to the world gives us more opportunities to interact with it--for good, oftentimes, but sometimes for ill.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:54 PM   #6
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There is really something to be said to this. If you want to follow the texts that suggest that Elves are automatically "written" into the Music, but Men are free to pursue their own destiny (but it'll still work out to Eru's will, because Eru's Eru, doncha know), that would suggest that Elves had a more passive relationship with the world around them.
I can see the logic here. It seems to me the most active times for the Elves ('active' meaning they did something besides eat, drink, and be merry) were during the War of the Jewels. The Oath drove the Sons of Fëanor to great deeds that shook Middle-earth, even as Fëanor himself prophesied.
Otherwise, it appears they only made a mark on the world when they were directly attacked, as Sauron did at Eregion, and later in the Last Alliance.
I'm not opining there was anything necessarily wrong with a 'live and let live' philosophy, but it did set them apart from the other races in general.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:43 PM   #7
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Narya

You know, this is an interesting thread.

I think that one of the themes I see in Tolkien's overall artistic philosophy is how random, and angelic, and strange love is. Obviously, he didn't write about it in much detail, but it crops up in the story lines, does it not?

It's so hard to explain attraction. It's even harder to explain when it evolves into something more.

You know, from Arwen's perspective, Aragorn was something new, was he not? Someone brave, and strong, and also finite - at least to the world she occupied. Someone who had already accomplished a lot in his short life, and who would go on to accomplish much more. She took a major leap of faith to be with him, and I think realizing that she would have to do it in order to be with him - it must have been a transformative experience right there.

Someone who challenges you, and takes you way out of your comfort zone can be very attractive. And inspiring. And all those good things.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:47 PM   #8
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Was Arwen one the elves living a "life of stagnation" though? She may not have travelled as extensively as Aragorn but during her stay (or stays) in Lorien it is possible that she may have spent a good deal of her time learning what Galadriel had to teach, as Galadriel herself would have spent time learning from Melian. If these teaching sessions involved the use of sanwe, then Arwen, though not having perhaps a lot of rich personal experiences, can tap those of her grandmother is willing to share. This could also have been done with her father and grandfather. Given her lineage she probably had as thorough an education as an elf could have in the Third Age. I guess what I'm saying is that elves may not have a need for direct experience in the way that humans do.
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Old 10-03-2009, 03:37 PM   #9
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Being just partway thru the thread, I feel compelled to bring up Lindir's comment: "But mortals have not been our study. We have other business."

Perhaps the question of maturity is, almost, a side-track. Mortals have not been our study. Mortality involves growing old and dying-- does it involve "growing up" as it were? Is that something strange to elves? Or do they retain their childlikenes even as they watch the ages pass and grow in lore and knowledge? What DO elves study? Elrond is a great loremaster and historian; but what had Legolas studied? What had Haldir studied? How youthful, or ageless, or agelong, were they?

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And Elves, sir! Elves here, and Elves there! Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children.
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Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy...The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful.
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and there sat a lady fair to look upon, and so like was she in form of womanhood to Elrond that Frodo guessed that she was one of his close kindred. Young she was and yet not so. ... yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.
The thought that comes to me with all this is, a human "maturity" is often disdainful of youthfulness, preferring something more like itself. But an elf can hardly afford such an attitude, especially as they live through more and more ages.

What about that elvish joy? "Terrible and splendid" are some of them; "merry as children" the others; and isn't it interesting that once Sam had spent some time with Galadriel, he said that she was both?

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Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime.
I think that when we try to fit elvish "maturity" into a framework of human "maturity" we somehow miss the essence of their elvishness. "Merry as children, terrible and splendid."
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