Robbing the Cradle

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It could be of course that by nature Elves did not have the same impetus that Men might have to acquire knowledge and experience. Assuming you would have long years ahead of you, you may not have the same urge to fill that time with experience as a mortal might. I always think a lot of Elves must have been vulnerable to living lives of stagnation.

There is really something to be said to this. If you want to follow the texts that suggest that Elves are automatically "written" into the Music, but Men are free to pursue their own destiny (but it'll still work out to Eru's will, because Eru's Eru, doncha know), that would suggest that Elves had a more passive relationship with the world around them. Whereas we all know from our own mortal experience that humankind has this innate drive to make some sort of impact on the world around us--which means more opportunities for new experiences and a different, "mortal" kind of wisdom. The very fact that we are not "bound" to the world gives us more opportunities to interact with it--for good, oftentimes, but sometimes for ill.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

There is really something to be said to this. If you want to follow the texts that suggest that Elves are automatically "written" into the Music, but Men are free to pursue their own destiny (but it'll still work out to Eru's will, because Eru's Eru, doncha know), that would suggest that Elves had a more passive relationship with the world around them.

I can see the logic here. It seems to me the most active times for the Elves ('active' meaning they did something besides eat, drink, and be merry) were during the War of the Jewels. The Oath drove the Sons of Fëanor to great deeds that shook Middle-earth, even as Fëanor himself prophesied.
Otherwise, it appears they only made a mark on the world when they were directly attacked, as Sauron did at Eregion, and later in the Last Alliance.
I'm not opining there was anything necessarily wrong with a 'live and let live' philosophy, but it did set them apart from the other races in general.

[Lush]

You know, this is an interesting thread.

I think that one of the themes I see in Tolkien's overall artistic philosophy is how random, and angelic, and strange love is. Obviously, he didn't write about it in much detail, but it crops up in the story lines, does it not?

It's so hard to explain attraction. It's even harder to explain when it evolves into something more.

You know, from Arwen's perspective, Aragorn was something new, was he not? Someone brave, and strong, and also finite - at least to the world she occupied. Someone who had already accomplished a lot in his short life, and who would go on to accomplish much more. She took a major leap of faith to be with him, and I think realizing that she would have to do it in order to be with him - it must have been a transformative experience right there.

Someone who challenges you, and takes you way out of your comfort zone can be very attractive. And inspiring. And all those good things.

[Morwen]

Was Arwen one the elves living a "life of stagnation" though? She may not have travelled as extensively as Aragorn but during her stay (or stays) in Lorien it is possible that she may have spent a good deal of her time learning what Galadriel had to teach, as Galadriel herself would have spent time learning from Melian. If these teaching sessions involved the use of sanwe, then Arwen, though not having perhaps a lot of rich personal experiences, can tap those of her grandmother is willing to share. This could also have been done with her father and grandfather. Given her lineage she probably had as thorough an education as an elf could have in the Third Age. I guess what I'm saying is that elves may not have a need for direct experience in the way that humans do.

[Lalwendë]

It's quite possible that what to us would look like 'stagnation' would look different to someone who would be alive for an almost unending length of time. If you only have 70-100 years to get everything done that you'd like to achieve then you might have to get a considerable 'shift on' compared to an Elf who could take their time. However, I think that just from the Elves we meet in Tolkien's work it was clear most Elves were great procrastinators, compared to the works Elrond and Galadriel achieved. It also sheds some light on Feanor and his character, and why he was viewed as hotheaded.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Was Arwen one the elves living a "life of stagnation" though? She may not have travelled as extensively as Aragorn but during her stay (or stays) in Lorien it is possible that she may have spent a good deal of her time learning what Galadriel had to teach, as Galadriel herself would have spent time learning from Melian. If these teaching sessions involved the use of sanwe, then Arwen, though not having perhaps a lot of rich personal experiences, can tap those of her grandmother is willing to share. This could also have been done with her father and grandfather. Given her lineage she probably had as thorough an education as an elf could have in the Third Age. I guess what I'm saying is that elves may not have a need for direct experience in the way that humans do.

Arwen may not have had a "stagnant" experience, but there is something massively different between learning about life's experiences and living them. The fact that she had so much access to lives past may even explain why she was so content up until the point that she met Aragorn.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Arwen may not have had a "stagnant" experience, but there is something massively different between learning about life's experiences and living them. The fact that she had so much access to lives past may even explain why she was so content up until the point that she met Aragorn.

I'm not suggesting that learning from life's experience and living it are the exact same thing. I am suggesting that "stagnant" may not be the best way to describe Arwen's life.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Morwen

I'm not suggesting that learning from life's experience and living it are the exact same thing. I am suggesting that "stagnant" may not be the best way to describe Arwen's life.

Moss-gathering, then? Ah, the limitations of language...

But I do think we are arriving at the same concept.

[Inziladun]

I wonder if some foreknowledge of 'fate' might have been a factor in Arwen's decisions in accepting Aragorn.

'For a moment Aragorn gazed in silence, but fearing that she would pass away, and never be seen again, he called to her crying Tinúviel, Tinúviel! even as Beren had done in the Elder Days long ago.
Then the maiden turned to him and smiled, and she said: "Who are you? And why do you call me by that name?"
'And he answered: "Because I believed you to be indeed Lúthien Tinúviel, of whom I was singing. But if you are not she, then you walk in her likeness."
' "So many have said," she answered gravely. "Yet her name is not mine, though maybe my doom will not be unlike hers".

Appendix A

The comment of having a similar 'doom' to Lúthien makes it appear almost as if she had been waiting for someone like Aragorn. At least she didn't seem all that surprised to observe a young Man walk out of the trees, and call her by the same name as that of the likeness in her recognised by her people.

[mark12_30]

Being just partway thru the thread, I feel compelled to bring up Lindir's comment: "But mortals have not been our study. We have other business."

Perhaps the question of maturity is, almost, a side-track. Mortals have not been our study. Mortality involves growing old and dying-- does it involve "growing up" as it were? Is that something strange to elves? Or do they retain their childlikenes even as they watch the ages pass and grow in lore and knowledge? What DO elves study? Elrond is a great loremaster and historian; but what had Legolas studied? What had Haldir studied? How youthful, or ageless, or agelong, were they?

And Elves, sir! Elves here, and Elves there! Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children.

Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy...The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful.

and there sat a lady fair to look upon, and so like was she in form of womanhood to Elrond that Frodo guessed that she was one of his close kindred. Young she was and yet not so. ... yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.

The thought that comes to me with all this is, a human "maturity" is often disdainful of youthfulness, preferring something more like itself. But an elf can hardly afford such an attitude, especially as they live through more and more ages.

What about that elvish joy? "Terrible and splendid" are some of them; "merry as children" the others; and isn't it interesting that once Sam had spent some time with Galadriel, he said that she was both?

Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime.

I think that when we try to fit elvish "maturity" into a framework of human "maturity" we somehow miss the essence of their elvishness. "Merry as children, terrible and splendid."