Balrog Breaking and Entering

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Also, speaking of secret passages and water, this reminds me of the Watcher in the water, who managed to get to the West Gate of Moria from who knows where,

Thinking about the Watcher, the creature was obviously not born in the lake - don't think that the Dwarves had had to contend with mini versions during their stay in Moria (there is the theory that the Watcher is actually a 'Flushie,' like some sewer alligator, but I'll let others speculate on that ). So the Watcher had to travel to the lake. If it could cross land, or at least any length, it wouldn't have remained in the lake.

So then it got into the lake from the water, meaning a passage appeared in the lake to some other place. If such passages from the surface to other areas are available to the Watcher, then they would be for the balrog as well.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by alatar

Thinking about the Watcher, the creature was obviously not born in the lake - don't think that the Dwarves had had to contend with mini versions during their stay in Moria (there is the theory that the Watcher is actually a 'Flushie,' like some sewer alligator, but I'll let others speculate on that ). So the Watcher had to travel to the lake. If it could cross land, or at least any length, it wouldn't have remained in the lake.

So then it got into the lake from the water, meaning a passage appeared in the lake to some other place. If such passages from the surface to other areas are available to the Watcher, then they would be for the balrog as well.

Well if you are of the camp that beieves that the Watcher was some sort of kracken, then in non-nativity to the lake or pre lake river, is almost guanteed since, presumably the Sirrannon is a freshwater river, and to my knowedge there are no freshwater squids. Actually, it's ability to survive in the lake makes me wonder if, maybe the dward had been dumping stuff (like tailings) in the river to make it salty enough for a marine creature to survive (if they did you migh say that the Watcher was just as much thier fault as waking the Balrog, since both were in a way due to thier mining.

[Inziladun]

I'm still unable to figure what made the Balrog decide to go where it did. If it wanted only to hide, there had to be much better options, far away from any Elves, Dwarves, or Edain. Perhaps it wanted to be close to the action, should Sauron require its services? But then, why did it not openly aid him rather than lying dormant for thousands of years until awakened, then skulking around in the dark bullying cannon-fodder Orcs?
I think I figured out something related though. I'd long wondered about the ultimate source of the 'ill will' and the conveniently bad weather faced by the Fellowship on Caradhras. It was their failure to climb to the Redhorn Gate, of course, that led them into Moria where the Balrog awaited them.

The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror....

Appendix A

Barazinbar was the Khuzdul name for Caradhras. The Balrog would have been quite familiar with the tunnels underneath that mountain. Perhaps it sensed the presence of the Ring, then used its 'divine' powers to defeat the Company's attempt on the Redhorn, knowing they would then be likely to enter its domain?
I'm probably the last to come to that conclusion, and it really isn't on topic, but it came as quite a revelation to me.

[radagastly]

To get back to the original question of the thread, why couldn't the Balrog have come in through the west-gate? For the dwarves, and for the elves of Eregion, it didn't exist until Celebrimbor arrived. (His name was on the door, wasn't it?)

Of course, this doesn't preclude some other possible entry. How about Durin's Stair? How about the top of the mountain? Of course, this implies that Balrogs can fly (wings?), but it also answers the fact that the Balrog seemed to know exactly how to find Durin's Stair (in his battle with Gandalf,) and how to get there. He's been there before. Sure seemed like it to me, at least at the time.

Of course, this doesn't explain the Watcher . . .

But, nothing explains the Watcher, except Tom Bombadil.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Don't forget also about all the crazy cataclysmic stuff that was going on during the War of Wrath. Could the shaking up of the earth that must have happened with the drowning of Beleriand been enough to 1). catch the Dwarves off guard, 2). open up new and secret ways under the earth, or 3). possibly even trap the Balrog there? (Sorry, but I have a bit of a hard time thinking that the Balrog spent that much time just waiting very, very patiently for Dwarf fricasee...)

There's a note in the "Durin's Folk" section of the Appendices that suggests that rather than actually waking the Balrog, the Dwarves merely

released it from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.

i.e. the Balrog was indeed trapped there by that time. It's not surprising– the area was geologically active even in the Third Age– too much for comfort, in fact– cf. The Bridge of Khazad-dûm.

Originally Posted by radagastly

To get back to the original question of the thread, why couldn't the Balrog have come in through the west-gate? For the dwarves, and for the elves of Eregion, it didn't exist until Celebrimbor arrived. (His name was on the door, wasn't it?)

Of course, this doesn't preclude some other possible entry. How about Durin's Stair? How about the top of the mountain? Of course, this implies that Balrogs can fly (wings?), but it also answers the fact that the Balrog seemed to know exactly how to find Durin's Stair (in his battle with Gandalf,) and how to get there. He's been there before. Sure seemed like it to me, at least at the time.

I refer you to my points earlier. As I said, I don't think the Balrog's hideout was connected to Moria at all until the dwarves broke into it while mining. For the sake of argument, it could have once been part of Moria proper, then sealed off by a rockfall or something– see above. However, I think it's much simpler to assume that Durin's Bane didn't deliberately choose a populous city to take its millennia-long nap in, but rather entered through some probably distant opening, travelled underground, and finally went to sleep in a cave that just happened to be near Moria.

And likely not all that close originally.

"The lodes led away north toward Caradhras, and down to darkness (...) they delved too greedily and too deep..."

–Gandalf in A Journey in the Dark.

I'd guess that at the time the Balrog took up residence, its cave or whatever was a long way from any workings of the dwarves– it was only much later that they mined deep enough to reach it.

As for how the Balrog knew Durin's Stair– well, it had plenty of time to explore Moria after its release, didn't it?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But don't you think his wings might have got in the way?

*ducks*

Oh, good that you mentioned it, Spm! You are right, the fact that he burrowed is actually another proof that he didn't have wings.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm still unable to figure what made the Balrog decide to go where it did. If it wanted only to hide, there had to be much better options, far away from any Elves, Dwarves, or Edain. Perhaps it wanted to be close to the action, should Sauron require its services? But then, why did it not openly aid him rather than lying dormant for thousands of years until awakened, then skulking around in the dark bullying cannon-fodder Orcs?

As for the question why not to help Sauron: why should he? They were basically of the same rank (maybe not officially in Morgoth's army hierarchy, but Morgoth was gone now), and I can't imagine Sauron coming to offer Balrog his aid - so why should it be the other way around? Also, cf. my points earlier: Durin's Bane was simply a coward. It all fits.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I refer you to my points earlier. As I said, I don't think the Balrog's hideout was connected to Moria at all until the dwarves broke into it while mining. For the sake of argument, it could have once been part of Moria proper, then sealed off by a rockfall or something– see above. However, I think it's much simpler to assume that Durin's Bane didn't deliberately choose a populous city to take its millennia-long nap in, but rather entered through some probably distant opening, travelled underground, and finally went to sleep in a cave that just happened to be near Moria.

And likely not all that close originally.

I'd guess that at the time the Balrog took up residence, its cave or whatever was a long way from any workings of the dwarves– it was only much later that they mined deep enough to reach it.

Exactly, I agree. Aside from that, I find it an interesting coincidence that Balrog was found so close to the lodes of mithril. Perhaps he stopped where he did also because he found it nice to sleep on tons of the precious metal?

As for how the Balrog knew Durin's Stair– well, it had plenty of time to explore Moria after its release, didn't it?

Exactly. Gandalf said he knew the underground tunnels "all too well", Durin's Stair, for him, would be just one of the many appendices of the tunnels. I find it more interesting why he chose to go to the top of Zirakzigil, of all places. I mean, he could have lead Gandalf to some deep tunnel who knows where, you know what I mean? Well, this is indeed off-topic, but I have never thought of that before, yet there must be an explanation. "Something else at work", the will of Eru driving even the Balrog to get outside, so that Gwaihir might pick up Gandalf? Or Balrog being hurt so much that he was afraid even of the "nameless things" around (just as much as Gandalf was), being worried that they would finish him once he's done with Gandalf? Who knows.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Oh, good that you mentioned it, Spm! You are right, the fact that he burrowed is actually another proof that he didn't have wings.

You are so right, to think that a winged creature could ever live in a cave. . .how silly!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I'm sticking with my contention that Balrogs have redundant wings, just so they can put on a big, terrifying show when they want to. Non-functional, but potentially impressive. But that's just me.

After reading the thread, several quotes come to mind:

"There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." (Gandalf, "A Journey in the Dark")

"But even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane." (also Gandalf, later in the same chapter)

"Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." (Gandalf, "The White Rider")

All these things make me think several things:

1. There are tunnels below Moria.

2. The creatures that made them are tremendously old.

3. The Dwarves know nothing about them.

4. The Balrog knew about them, even if it didn't make them.

5. The Dwarves' knowledge of such tunnels was either minimal or non-existent, until they woke up the Balrog.

I have often wondered about the "nameless things" that are even older than Sauron. Did Gandalf mean that literally, or merely in terms of their existence in Middle-earth? If they are literally older than Sauron, they would have to be some form of Ainur, since Tolkien never mentions that Eru made anything related to Ea before he made the Valar and Maiar. If they're merely older than Sauron in that they were in Middle-earth before he took up permanent residence there, I would be inclined to think that they were more of Melkor's "experiments." He may have planted them well below the surface of ME so as to avoid the notice of the Valar, sort of strange weapons in reserve (or perhaps even stranger time-bombs). Whatever they were, in fleeing the War of Wrath, the Balrog of Moria may simply have high-tailed it into the tunnels, not even knowing where he would end up, so long as it was somewhere he could avoid being noticed, and captured or destroyed.

Hope that made sense. I'm still on pins and needles waiting to find out if my husband will still have a job at the end of the month. They were supposed to tell him two weeks ago, but now it's probably going to be later this week. Danged Balrogs still exist in the modern world, I guess.