Balrog Breaking and Entering

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But don't you think his wings might have got in the way?

*ducks*

Oh, good that you mentioned it, Spm! You are right, the fact that he burrowed is actually another proof that he didn't have wings.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm still unable to figure what made the Balrog decide to go where it did. If it wanted only to hide, there had to be much better options, far away from any Elves, Dwarves, or Edain. Perhaps it wanted to be close to the action, should Sauron require its services? But then, why did it not openly aid him rather than lying dormant for thousands of years until awakened, then skulking around in the dark bullying cannon-fodder Orcs?

As for the question why not to help Sauron: why should he? They were basically of the same rank (maybe not officially in Morgoth's army hierarchy, but Morgoth was gone now), and I can't imagine Sauron coming to offer Balrog his aid - so why should it be the other way around? Also, cf. my points earlier: Durin's Bane was simply a coward. It all fits.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I refer you to my points earlier. As I said, I don't think the Balrog's hideout was connected to Moria at all until the dwarves broke into it while mining. For the sake of argument, it could have once been part of Moria proper, then sealed off by a rockfall or something– see above. However, I think it's much simpler to assume that Durin's Bane didn't deliberately choose a populous city to take its millennia-long nap in, but rather entered through some probably distant opening, travelled underground, and finally went to sleep in a cave that just happened to be near Moria.

And likely not all that close originally.

I'd guess that at the time the Balrog took up residence, its cave or whatever was a long way from any workings of the dwarves– it was only much later that they mined deep enough to reach it.

Exactly, I agree. Aside from that, I find it an interesting coincidence that Balrog was found so close to the lodes of mithril. Perhaps he stopped where he did also because he found it nice to sleep on tons of the precious metal?

As for how the Balrog knew Durin's Stair– well, it had plenty of time to explore Moria after its release, didn't it?

Exactly. Gandalf said he knew the underground tunnels "all too well", Durin's Stair, for him, would be just one of the many appendices of the tunnels. I find it more interesting why he chose to go to the top of Zirakzigil, of all places. I mean, he could have lead Gandalf to some deep tunnel who knows where, you know what I mean? Well, this is indeed off-topic, but I have never thought of that before, yet there must be an explanation. "Something else at work", the will of Eru driving even the Balrog to get outside, so that Gwaihir might pick up Gandalf? Or Balrog being hurt so much that he was afraid even of the "nameless things" around (just as much as Gandalf was), being worried that they would finish him once he's done with Gandalf? Who knows.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Oh, good that you mentioned it, Spm! You are right, the fact that he burrowed is actually another proof that he didn't have wings.

You are so right, to think that a winged creature could ever live in a cave. . .how silly!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I'm sticking with my contention that Balrogs have redundant wings, just so they can put on a big, terrifying show when they want to. Non-functional, but potentially impressive. But that's just me.

After reading the thread, several quotes come to mind:

"There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." (Gandalf, "A Journey in the Dark")

"But even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane." (also Gandalf, later in the same chapter)

"Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." (Gandalf, "The White Rider")

All these things make me think several things:

1. There are tunnels below Moria.

2. The creatures that made them are tremendously old.

3. The Dwarves know nothing about them.

4. The Balrog knew about them, even if it didn't make them.

5. The Dwarves' knowledge of such tunnels was either minimal or non-existent, until they woke up the Balrog.

I have often wondered about the "nameless things" that are even older than Sauron. Did Gandalf mean that literally, or merely in terms of their existence in Middle-earth? If they are literally older than Sauron, they would have to be some form of Ainur, since Tolkien never mentions that Eru made anything related to Ea before he made the Valar and Maiar. If they're merely older than Sauron in that they were in Middle-earth before he took up permanent residence there, I would be inclined to think that they were more of Melkor's "experiments." He may have planted them well below the surface of ME so as to avoid the notice of the Valar, sort of strange weapons in reserve (or perhaps even stranger time-bombs). Whatever they were, in fleeing the War of Wrath, the Balrog of Moria may simply have high-tailed it into the tunnels, not even knowing where he would end up, so long as it was somewhere he could avoid being noticed, and captured or destroyed.

Hope that made sense. I'm still on pins and needles waiting to find out if my husband will still have a job at the end of the month. They were supposed to tell him two weeks ago, but now it's probably going to be later this week. Danged Balrogs still exist in the modern world, I guess.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I have often wondered about the "nameless things" that are even older than Sauron. Did Gandalf mean that literally, or merely in terms of their existence in Middle-earth? If they are literally older than Sauron, they would have to be some form of Ainur, since Tolkien never mentions that Eru made anything related to Ea before he made the Valar and Maiar. If they're merely older than Sauron in that they were in Middle-earth before he took up permanent residence there, I would be inclined to think that they were more of Melkor's "experiments." He may have planted them well below the surface of ME so as to avoid the notice of the Valar, sort of strange weapons in reserve (or perhaps even stranger time-bombs). Whatever they were, in fleeing the War of Wrath, the Balrog of Moria may simply have high-tailed it into the tunnels, not even knowing where he would end up, so long as it was somewhere he could avoid being noticed, and captured or destroyed.

Hope that made sense. I'm still on pins and needles waiting to find out if my husband will still have a job at the end of the month. They were supposed to tell him two weeks ago, but now it's probably going to be later this week. Danged Balrogs still exist in the modern world, I guess.

Nice points, Ibri!

It could be a combination of both--after all, the Balrogs themselves are Maiar who were then persuaded into the service of Melkor (with the notable exception of Arien). And considering that we have sea-Maiar (Osse and Uinen, and possibly "The River Woman"), air-Maiar (the Suruli), and fire-Maiar (the Balrogs and Arien); why shouldn't there be earth-Maiar to create all kinds of cool tunnels?

[Inziladun]

I thought I'd bring to light something I recently found that would have some bearing on this. Apparently it would have been easier than I'd thought for the Balrog to make its way under Moria without being noticed.

Here the Elven-way from Hollin ended. Holly was the token of the people of that land, and they planted it here to mark the end of their domain; for the West-door was made chiefly for their use in their traffic with the Lords of Moria.

FOTR A Journey In the Dark

The Tale of Years says Eregion was founded in the year 750 of the Second Age, so the West-gate through with the Fellowship entered Moria was not in existence at the time the Balrog would have been fleeing Thangorodrim.
With such a prosperous Dwarven city which surely held commerce with others east and west, you'd think it must have been accessible from the western side of the Mountains though, and presumably there were other ways in.
I still have yet to figure out why the Balrog chose the Misty Mountains near Moria as a hiding place. You'd think the Grey Mountains would have been much better. After all, they seem to have been pretty much left alone by Elves, Men, and Dwarves, and the remaining Dragons apparently made the Withered Heath in those mountains their home after the fall of Morgoth.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But at the time when he was supposed to get there, I would assume the doors were also guarded? I mean, even though the door was open, you would have a Dwarf or two sitting there, if nothing else, and it would be somewhat awkward for the Balrog to get through customs.

As for the Grey Mountains/Withered Heath question, well, maybe that's just it - without the central leadership, maybe the Balrog did not feel as comfortable to share his place with some dragons. No, it would be somewhat "let's stay each in our own territory, here be dragons, here be spiders, here be balrogs". Also, what do we know, maybe Durin's Bane had a special affinity for mithril?

And one more note to the Grey Mountains - it's not that they were totally left alone either. Dwarves have been there at some point too, and possibly (maybe) already Men on the southern side (the Northerners lived there certainly later, resp. then the ancestors of Rohirrim). And Orcs (at least around Gundabad, so probably outreaching to the western part of the Grey Mountains).

[Findegil]

I don't think that the way to the Westgate existed prior to the Elves founding Eregion. If you think about the way of the company it looked for a long time as if they wandered through a very simple tunnel system with no much choice of direction. Only when they aproach the eastern area of Moria things become more complex. In addition the dwarves did use the redhorn-pass frequently. Otherwise it wouldn't have gained such a bad reputation. Why would they have used the pass if they had an underground way?

I think that the passage quoted means that not only tha gate was build at that time but the entire entrance and the way to reach it.

Respectfully
Findegil